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People should note that: * this is a UK university, tuition is limited to about 30k GBP for a (UK standard) 3 year degree. That's 30k total, not per year. Acco

People should note that: * this is a UK university, tuition is limited to about 30k GBP for a (UK standard) 3 year degree. That's 30k total, not per year. Accommodation is extra. * Leicester isn't a particularly good university. It's ranked 77th out of 121. 50th out of 68 for maths [0]. * The department has been put on notice a few times that it needs more to up its income (get more students, get more research grants, get more other funding) or cut it's expenses. It hasn't done so. * There are a whole bunch of wider issues for university funding at the moment. A rent strike is costing them money. Inability to take on foreign students (who they can charge more) is costing them money. A drop in overall intake as more students realise it likely isn't worth the money to get a degree etc. Fewer students on campus means less sales from university bars, restaurants etc. Mix that with high fixed costs and someone has to be let go. * They're closing the pure maths departments but seem to be keeping the others (Including actuarial science) which is likely what students actually want. Ultimately UK degrees are mostly about getting a job these days, not the beauty of numbers. That's sad but that's the predictable consequence of 20 years of government policy in the area. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/education/ng-interactive/2020/sep/05/the-best-uk-universities-2021-league-table https://www.theguardian.com/education/ng-interactive/2020/se...

throwaways885 6y ago
"Limited"? UK tuition used to be much, much cheaper: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuition_fees_in_the_United_Kingdom#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuition_fees_in_the_United_Kin...
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  Yeah, it used to be that the government paid that and students went for free or got a grant. Starting back in 2002 they cut the amount the government paid and increased what students paid. So the unis didn't get any more money, the government just saved cash. Total BS imho, but don't get me started...
  - throwaways885 6y ago
    It would be less of an issue if there was an actual free market, instead all unis just max out the student loan and still complain there's not enough money. I'd happily go to a shack if there's good teaching. The US are even more innovative in ripping off students.
    - LatteLazy 6y ago
      I'm always surprised their aren't more US schools that are just academics. They all seem to have football teams and sports stadiums and up market dorms. I went to Exeter. I picked the cheapest accommodation. I was more than happy with the on site sports centre. I wouldn't want to pay double for gold taps and an arena. I think it would be interesting to see how places fared if tuition was linked to rankings. Top 10 can charge full wack, Next 10 80%, etc. But that would force people to make hard decisions...
      - username90 6y ago
        The Principal leaves money on the table if they only do academics. You get paid based on the budget of the organisation you run, and just doing academics for 1000 students obviously needs a smaller budget than doing academics, sports, entertainment, lodging etc for 1000 students.
      - kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
        There are more of these schools than the big names with athletic programs. You just never hear about them.
    - KaiserPro 6y ago
      I don't think a free market would help that much. It would have been better if they'd just actually made "tuition fees" an actual proper graduation tax, rather than a tax for the poor and a loan for the rich.
  - username90 6y ago
    UK just wanted to stop funding EU students, since EU disallowed paying for your own students and not others. The problem is that English universities are inherently more attractive so UK has way more EU students than EU had UK students making UK support a disproportionally large number of students.
billyoyo 6y ago
You state that "a drop in overall intake as more students realise it likely isn't worth the money". This is completely unfounded and not supported by statistics at all [1]. University intake in the UK across all ethnicities has been on a steady increase. Also, I'm not sure it's true to say UK degrees don't care about the beauty of number's. Again, the statistics show that the number of mathematics students have been according to the overall trend [2]. And anecdotally, comparing with friends from other countries the UK actually seems to have a university system unusually geared to purely academic degrees. It's my personal belief that while of course university is about getting a job, it's also about learning about adulthood for many people. People use it to delay the start of their working life and enjoy a few years of adult freedom, as well as to get a degree. Anecdotally, I know a lot of my friends went to uni almost entirely for this reason and had no idea in their head about what they'd do after yet. But I don't think there's anything wrong with that. In fact with increasing lifetimes I think it only makes sense we continue to delay the age at which we enter the workforce. [1] https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/higher-education/entry-rates-into-higher-education/latest https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education... [2] https://www.hesa.ac.uk/news/16-01-2020/sb255-higher-education-student-statistics/qualifications https://www.hesa.ac.uk/news/16-01-2020/sb255-higher-educatio...
d-lowl 6y ago
> foreign students (who they can charge more) The amount of money the uni gets is the same. Overseas pay the full price, domestic students are subsidised and only pay £9k, but the uni gets it in full anyway. And, no, they still take overseas students (with remote studies it's not more difficult, than domestic ones). Imperial's Chem department even filled more places for 1st year than usual.
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  I don't think you're correct about that. About 10% of teaching income is from the government, but that's to cover courses that cost more to teach (medicine, physical sciences, engineering etc). There is no per-student subsidy as far as I am aware? Unis get the 9k a year, either cash or from the slc. Also, international fees are unregulated. They're totally down to the uni and the student. Central government doesn't touch them. This is why there has been a big push to take on foreign students in most universities over the last 20 years. Source: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/policy-and-analysis/reports/Documents/2016/university-funding-explained.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjQ8KDAgsXuAhVM2qQKHXH9A-QQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3pR--vjqalafEzuIRwa9hM https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/... I'm glad to hear Imperial Chem is doing well. Exeter Chem was closed when I was there back in 2004.

throwaways885 6y ago

"Limited"? UK tuition used to be much, much cheaper: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuition_fees_in_the_United_Kingdom#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuition_fees_in_the_United_Kin...

LatteLazy 6y ago
Yeah, it used to be that the government paid that and students went for free or got a grant. Starting back in 2002 they cut the amount the government paid and increased what students paid. So the unis didn't get any more money, the government just saved cash. Total BS imho, but don't get me started...
- throwaways885 6y ago
  It would be less of an issue if there was an actual free market, instead all unis just max out the student loan and still complain there's not enough money. I'd happily go to a shack if there's good teaching. The US are even more innovative in ripping off students.
  - LatteLazy 6y ago
    I'm always surprised their aren't more US schools that are just academics. They all seem to have football teams and sports stadiums and up market dorms. I went to Exeter. I picked the cheapest accommodation. I was more than happy with the on site sports centre. I wouldn't want to pay double for gold taps and an arena. I think it would be interesting to see how places fared if tuition was linked to rankings. Top 10 can charge full wack, Next 10 80%, etc. But that would force people to make hard decisions...
    - username90 6y ago
      The Principal leaves money on the table if they only do academics. You get paid based on the budget of the organisation you run, and just doing academics for 1000 students obviously needs a smaller budget than doing academics, sports, entertainment, lodging etc for 1000 students.
    - kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
      There are more of these schools than the big names with athletic programs. You just never hear about them.
  - KaiserPro 6y ago
    I don't think a free market would help that much. It would have been better if they'd just actually made "tuition fees" an actual proper graduation tax, rather than a tax for the poor and a loan for the rich.
- username90 6y ago
  UK just wanted to stop funding EU students, since EU disallowed paying for your own students and not others. The problem is that English universities are inherently more attractive so UK has way more EU students than EU had UK students making UK support a disproportionally large number of students.

billyoyo 6y ago

You state that "a drop in overall intake as more students realise it likely isn't worth the money". This is completely unfounded and not supported by statistics at all [1]. University intake in the UK across all ethnicities has been on a steady increase. Also, I'm not sure it's true to say UK degrees don't care about the beauty of number's. Again, the statistics show that the number of mathematics students have been according to the overall trend [2]. And anecdotally, comparing with friends from other countries the UK actually seems to have a university system unusually geared to purely academic degrees. It's my personal belief that while of course university is about getting a job, it's also about learning about adulthood for many people. People use it to delay the start of their working life and enjoy a few years of adult freedom, as well as to get a degree. Anecdotally, I know a lot of my friends went to uni almost entirely for this reason and had no idea in their head about what they'd do after yet. But I don't think there's anything wrong with that. In fact with increasing lifetimes I think it only makes sense we continue to delay the age at which we enter the workforce. [1] https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/higher-education/entry-rates-into-higher-education/latest https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education... [2] https://www.hesa.ac.uk/news/16-01-2020/sb255-higher-education-student-statistics/qualifications https://www.hesa.ac.uk/news/16-01-2020/sb255-higher-educatio...

d-lowl 6y ago

> foreign students (who they can charge more) The amount of money the uni gets is the same. Overseas pay the full price, domestic students are subsidised and only pay £9k, but the uni gets it in full anyway. And, no, they still take overseas students (with remote studies it's not more difficult, than domestic ones). Imperial's Chem department even filled more places for 1st year than usual.

LatteLazy 6y ago
I don't think you're correct about that. About 10% of teaching income is from the government, but that's to cover courses that cost more to teach (medicine, physical sciences, engineering etc). There is no per-student subsidy as far as I am aware? Unis get the 9k a year, either cash or from the slc. Also, international fees are unregulated. They're totally down to the uni and the student. Central government doesn't touch them. This is why there has been a big push to take on foreign students in most universities over the last 20 years. Source: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/policy-and-analysis/reports/Documents/2016/university-funding-explained.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjQ8KDAgsXuAhVM2qQKHXH9A-QQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3pR--vjqalafEzuIRwa9hM https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/... I'm glad to hear Imperial Chem is doing well. Exeter Chem was closed when I was there back in 2004.