4 ms·

I agree that at some point you need to be able to say: "We just don't want person X to ever return in our society.". The big question is how do you implement s

I agree that at some point you need to be able to say: "We just don't want person X to ever return in our society.". The big question is how do you implement such a thing? I think the English had the right idea by expelling them though I don't know if such a thing would still work in 2021...

thaumasiotes 6y ago
Exile is one of the most traditional legal punishments. (Everywhere.) I think a couple of things tend to undermine it in the modern day: - Very free movement between regions. - No norm of distrust for strangers. In a traditional society, when someone new shows up, the default is that nobody trusts them to do anything. Any transaction that doesn't settle immediately can't be done, etc. But modern people are supposed to treat strangers as if they didn't just show up because they got ejected from their home. This means exiling people more or less corresponds to screwing over the hapless, trusting society they get exiled to. There is a solution implemented in the US, the sex offender registry, meant to address this exact problem. ("What if someone enters our community, but they're not trustworthy?") The problem is that the formalization of the sex offender registry (1) is the same everywhere -- not a big problem; the old norm of distrust for strangers doesn't differ in that regard -- and (2) supersedes the old system whereby a stranger could, over time, become trusted. You might personally trust someone who once urinated in public, but he'll never be officially trustworthy no matter what happens.
- FooHentai 6y ago
  Add to this a lack of remaining frontiers - Used to be those were somewhere for people to strike out and make a truly new start. Perhaps if/when space becomes a true new frontier that dynamic will return.
- bilbo0s 6y ago
  This means exiling people more or less corresponds to screwing over the hapless, trusting society they get exiled to There are no hapless, trusting societies any longer. The way the criminal justice system works, if we exile these guys running the vaccine scam, the nations we exile them to will immediately deport them back to the US. No one wants the criminals from other nations. So unless your crime is not terribly serious, exile won't work. It certainly won't work in this instance. This is not some trifling misdemeanor.
  - thaumasiotes 6y ago
    Exile does not usually remove someone from the country. Greek exiles pretty much just had to leave the city they were exiled from. Chinese exiles had to observe a minimum distance from the point of exile, which was set according to the severity of their crime. The British practice of transporting criminals to other continents is abnormal. We're talking about someone getting kicked out of Phoenix and moving to Austin.
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  > There is a solution implemented in the US, the sex offender registry, meant to address this exact problem. Well, you glossed over a lot in that one sentence, namely: 1) Prosecutions are usually plea-bargained in the US, so no proof is required that the accused actually did anything to get on the list. 2) The average person cannot afford a defense, so again the registry might mean they didn't have $100k - $200k for legal fees. 3) How are incorrect entries updated? 4) Since being on that list geo-fences the accused from areas of town, they end up living under bridges on the outskirts of town. Is that what we as a society want, especially given the above? 5) "Sex offender" in the US includes an 18-yo receiving a nude photo from his 17-yo gf, which is the most common category. That's some level of puritanical.
esja 6y ago
Human rights law in many countries prevents their citizens from being made stateless. The UK has tried to strip the citizenship of some ISIL members, e.g. Shamima Begum, but it’s tied up in court: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamima_Begum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamima_Begum
spoonjim 6y ago
You implement it by putting them in prison for the rest of their lives. You could just cordon off an island Alcatraz style, helicopter drop in food and supplies, and let them figure out their own shit.
- Mtinie 6y ago
  You’ve generally described the colonization of Australia by the British. https://www.digitalpanopticon.org/Convicts_and_the_Colonisation_of_Australia,_1788-1868 https://www.digitalpanopticon.org/Convicts_and_the_Colonisat...

thaumasiotes 6y ago

Exile is one of the most traditional legal punishments. (Everywhere.) I think a couple of things tend to undermine it in the modern day: - Very free movement between regions. - No norm of distrust for strangers. In a traditional society, when someone new shows up, the default is that nobody trusts them to do anything. Any transaction that doesn't settle immediately can't be done, etc. But modern people are supposed to treat strangers as if they didn't just show up because they got ejected from their home. This means exiling people more or less corresponds to screwing over the hapless, trusting society they get exiled to. There is a solution implemented in the US, the sex offender registry, meant to address this exact problem. ("What if someone enters our community, but they're not trustworthy?") The problem is that the formalization of the sex offender registry (1) is the same everywhere -- not a big problem; the old norm of distrust for strangers doesn't differ in that regard -- and (2) supersedes the old system whereby a stranger could, over time, become trusted. You might personally trust someone who once urinated in public, but he'll never be officially trustworthy no matter what happens.

FooHentai 6y ago
Add to this a lack of remaining frontiers - Used to be those were somewhere for people to strike out and make a truly new start. Perhaps if/when space becomes a true new frontier that dynamic will return.
bilbo0s 6y ago
This means exiling people more or less corresponds to screwing over the hapless, trusting society they get exiled to There are no hapless, trusting societies any longer. The way the criminal justice system works, if we exile these guys running the vaccine scam, the nations we exile them to will immediately deport them back to the US. No one wants the criminals from other nations. So unless your crime is not terribly serious, exile won't work. It certainly won't work in this instance. This is not some trifling misdemeanor.
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  Exile does not usually remove someone from the country. Greek exiles pretty much just had to leave the city they were exiled from. Chinese exiles had to observe a minimum distance from the point of exile, which was set according to the severity of their crime. The British practice of transporting criminals to other continents is abnormal. We're talking about someone getting kicked out of Phoenix and moving to Austin.
redis_mlc 6y ago
> There is a solution implemented in the US, the sex offender registry, meant to address this exact problem. Well, you glossed over a lot in that one sentence, namely: 1) Prosecutions are usually plea-bargained in the US, so no proof is required that the accused actually did anything to get on the list. 2) The average person cannot afford a defense, so again the registry might mean they didn't have $100k - $200k for legal fees. 3) How are incorrect entries updated? 4) Since being on that list geo-fences the accused from areas of town, they end up living under bridges on the outskirts of town. Is that what we as a society want, especially given the above? 5) "Sex offender" in the US includes an 18-yo receiving a nude photo from his 17-yo gf, which is the most common category. That's some level of puritanical.

esja 6y ago

Human rights law in many countries prevents their citizens from being made stateless. The UK has tried to strip the citizenship of some ISIL members, e.g. Shamima Begum, but it’s tied up in court: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamima_Begum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamima_Begum

spoonjim 6y ago

You implement it by putting them in prison for the rest of their lives. You could just cordon off an island Alcatraz style, helicopter drop in food and supplies, and let them figure out their own shit.

Mtinie 6y ago
You’ve generally described the colonization of Australia by the British. https://www.digitalpanopticon.org/Convicts_and_the_Colonisation_of_Australia,_1788-1868 https://www.digitalpanopticon.org/Convicts_and_the_Colonisat...