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Can we just please pass some legislation to break Google and Apple's app installation monopoly already? Sure, they built the phones, doesn't mean we can't dema

by m12k 6y ago

Can we just please pass some legislation to break Google and Apple's app installation monopoly already? Sure, they built the phones, doesn't mean we can't demand more rights than they decide it's profitable to give us (or put another way, just because the king's ancestors founded the country doesn't mean we shouldn't demand freedom and democracy).

dexen 6y ago
Can we just please pass some legislation to break Google and Apple's app installation monopoly already? No, we can't solve the problem that way: the very same problem wound remain: EU and 5/9 Eyes want e2ee backdoored or gone. If you start legislating which apps are allowed, you're putting yourself even more at mercy of gov regulation. And the regulation would be blanket, with little to no way of sorting things out through unofficial channels as it can be done with Google. It'd be "backdoor or jail", not even sideloading apps to help you.
- xenophonB 6y ago
  They can't practically do that, you're just making up a course of events that can't happen (people can develop things anonymously and be paid anonymously, and it's absolute nonsense to say that governments are going to be arresting the general public for the "crime" of privacy. And in America at least it's almost certainly unconstitutional.
feanaro 6y ago
And while we're at it, let's disallow Google from mandating the exclusive use of their own service for push notifications.
ChuckNorris89 6y ago
>Can we just please pass some legislation to break Google and Apple's app installation monopoly already? Agreed, but then Apple/Google and the fans of their walled gardens will argue that without this heavy censorship, grandma will install some malware on her phone that will empty her bank account or that their kids will install some malware that will spy on them (other than the social media apps that already do that).
- echelon 6y ago
  You don't even need to bring grandma into it. They like it themselves. There is an entire population of humans that hypes companies, franchises, celebrities, etc. and treats them like a member of their own family. With a fondness. And a desire to defend their selection. There's a technical means to lock down grandma and the kids. Fans are quick to dismiss it and shift the conversation back to why their choice is great.
danieldisu 6y ago
It's amazing that bureaucrats fined Microsoft for putting IE as default and keep allowing apple to do what they want. Europe should force these companies to allow users to install any software they want in their devices as long as it is legal...
- Veen 6y ago
  > It's amazing that bureaucrats fined Microsoft for putting IE as default and keep allowing apple to do what they want. The difference is that Microsoft attempted to use its operating system monopoly to win the browser wars. Bundling Internet Explorer with Windows made it difficult for other browsers to compete on an even playing field. Apple doesn't have an operating system monopoly on the desktop or mobile. MacOS and iOS have a smaller userbase than both of their main competitors. It doesn't have an app store monopoly either.
  - xenophonB 6y ago
    Sorry but a duopoly is little different than a monopoly functionally.
  - brokenmachine 6y ago
    >MacOS and iOS have a smaller userbase than both of their main competitors. It doesn't have an app store monopoly either. I don't have an iphone, but don't you have to jailbreak it to install any software not blessed by Apple? That sounds like a monopoly to me.
pdkl95 6y ago
These tech monopolies were built on adversarial interoperability! IBM made their "PC", but a lot of Silicon Valley's growth in the 80s and 90s happened because businesses had the freedom to innovate adversarially, creating the IBM PC clone. As Cory Doctorow recently explained[1]: >> It's how we got Gateway, Dell, Compaq and all of the other PC vendors that might have sold you that IBM PC clone in 1984 running an operating system that IBM hadn't made, on phone lines that had been broken up from AT&T. >> And so it felt in those days like maybe we'd found some kind of perfect market, a market where you could make your products with low capital, just with the sweat of your own mind, by writing code. That you could access the global audience of everyone who might want to run that code over a low cost universal network. And that that audience could switch to your product at a very low cost, because you could always write the code that it would take to to port the old data formats and to connect the old services to your new product. It was a market where the best ideas would turn into companies that would find customers and change the world. >> as these companies acquired new monopolies, they diverted their monopoly rents to foreclosing on competitive compatibility. When talking about monopoly, people tend to focus on price, but modern tech monopolies don't need to use traditional form of rent seeking. Exploitative prices don't make sense when the monopolist undermines the entire market with "free services". Instead, tech monopolies are about control of what is allowed to participate in the market. [1] https://media.ccc.de/v/rc3-11337-what_the_cyberoptimists_got_wrong_-_and_what_to_do_about_it https://media.ccc.de/v/rc3-11337-what_the_cyberoptimists_got...
ufmace 6y ago
Fat chance. Have you seen the way politics is going these days? It's far more likely that they'll pass legislation to do the opposite - bar anyone from making, using, or distributing a communication system that can't be monitored and censored by Trusted Authorities.

by m12k 6y ago

dexen 6y ago

Can we just please pass some legislation to break Google and Apple's app installation monopoly already? No, we can't solve the problem that way: the very same problem wound remain: EU and 5/9 Eyes want e2ee backdoored or gone. If you start legislating which apps are allowed, you're putting yourself even more at mercy of gov regulation. And the regulation would be blanket, with little to no way of sorting things out through unofficial channels as it can be done with Google. It'd be "backdoor or jail", not even sideloading apps to help you.

xenophonB 6y ago
They can't practically do that, you're just making up a course of events that can't happen (people can develop things anonymously and be paid anonymously, and it's absolute nonsense to say that governments are going to be arresting the general public for the "crime" of privacy. And in America at least it's almost certainly unconstitutional.

feanaro 6y ago

And while we're at it, let's disallow Google from mandating the exclusive use of their own service for push notifications.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago

>Can we just please pass some legislation to break Google and Apple's app installation monopoly already? Agreed, but then Apple/Google and the fans of their walled gardens will argue that without this heavy censorship, grandma will install some malware on her phone that will empty her bank account or that their kids will install some malware that will spy on them (other than the social media apps that already do that).

echelon 6y ago
You don't even need to bring grandma into it. They like it themselves. There is an entire population of humans that hypes companies, franchises, celebrities, etc. and treats them like a member of their own family. With a fondness. And a desire to defend their selection. There's a technical means to lock down grandma and the kids. Fans are quick to dismiss it and shift the conversation back to why their choice is great.

danieldisu 6y ago

It's amazing that bureaucrats fined Microsoft for putting IE as default and keep allowing apple to do what they want. Europe should force these companies to allow users to install any software they want in their devices as long as it is legal...

Veen 6y ago
> It's amazing that bureaucrats fined Microsoft for putting IE as default and keep allowing apple to do what they want. The difference is that Microsoft attempted to use its operating system monopoly to win the browser wars. Bundling Internet Explorer with Windows made it difficult for other browsers to compete on an even playing field. Apple doesn't have an operating system monopoly on the desktop or mobile. MacOS and iOS have a smaller userbase than both of their main competitors. It doesn't have an app store monopoly either.
- xenophonB 6y ago
  Sorry but a duopoly is little different than a monopoly functionally.
- brokenmachine 6y ago
  >MacOS and iOS have a smaller userbase than both of their main competitors. It doesn't have an app store monopoly either. I don't have an iphone, but don't you have to jailbreak it to install any software not blessed by Apple? That sounds like a monopoly to me.

pdkl95 6y ago

These tech monopolies were built on adversarial interoperability! IBM made their "PC", but a lot of Silicon Valley's growth in the 80s and 90s happened because businesses had the freedom to innovate adversarially, creating the IBM PC clone. As Cory Doctorow recently explained[1]: >> It's how we got Gateway, Dell, Compaq and all of the other PC vendors that might have sold you that IBM PC clone in 1984 running an operating system that IBM hadn't made, on phone lines that had been broken up from AT&T. >> And so it felt in those days like maybe we'd found some kind of perfect market, a market where you could make your products with low capital, just with the sweat of your own mind, by writing code. That you could access the global audience of everyone who might want to run that code over a low cost universal network. And that that audience could switch to your product at a very low cost, because you could always write the code that it would take to to port the old data formats and to connect the old services to your new product. It was a market where the best ideas would turn into companies that would find customers and change the world. >> as these companies acquired new monopolies, they diverted their monopoly rents to foreclosing on competitive compatibility. When talking about monopoly, people tend to focus on price, but modern tech monopolies don't need to use traditional form of rent seeking. Exploitative prices don't make sense when the monopolist undermines the entire market with "free services". Instead, tech monopolies are about control of what is allowed to participate in the market. [1] https://media.ccc.de/v/rc3-11337-what_the_cyberoptimists_got_wrong_-_and_what_to_do_about_it https://media.ccc.de/v/rc3-11337-what_the_cyberoptimists_got...

ufmace 6y ago

Fat chance. Have you seen the way politics is going these days? It's far more likely that they'll pass legislation to do the opposite - bar anyone from making, using, or distributing a communication system that can't be monitored and censored by Trusted Authorities.