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Ask HN: I just got ousted as CTO, Is it justifiable?

Our new CEO and VC just decided to replace me, the CTO, with an outsider who is more accomplished and with more experience technically. He has open source projects that are prominent in the industry with 10k+ stars. Personally, I feel sad and betrayed but understand the reasoning why. They mention it's lower risk to bring the person on even though I'm doing a decent job at the moment. I have done nothing that would bring doubt to my skills besides not being experienced. My team mentioned it would affect their morale because they trust me and my leadership and mention that there could be a chance they leave because I won't be the CTO anymore. I tried to fight for my position but it was me still with the company or being fired. Personally, I am for staying even after the fact due to my want of success for the company and everybody. My question is, should I have fought for my position and continue the journey with me being CTO even with the risks? My gut says to fight for it, but I do see the reasons why not as well. My team trusts me and my leadership but the VC and CEO does not.

curmudgeon22 6y ago
A lot of details unknown, so difficult to say. I’m inclined to say fight for it, you’re the incumbent with vision for the company, a deep understanding of the current situation and trust of the team. We’re you a part of selecting the new ceo? How old is the company and we’re you a founder?
- throw_away_cto 6y ago
  > We’re you a part of selecting the new ceo? No, I was not. > How old is the company and we’re you a founder? 5 years and we got it to a profitable position. And no, I am not a founder but a consultant turned CTO and pushed hard on technology and decisions that helped us partner with a Fortune 100 company.
decentiguess 6y ago
Why care about the title? If you really care about the company and want to see it succeed then you should welcome someone with more experience. If things go great maybe the outsider leaves and you slide in and replace him with the extra knowledge you gained from working with him. If things don't go great then it wasn't your fault when you're interviewing for your next role.
- throw_away_cto 6y ago
  > Why care about the title? I would say I care more about the responsibilities and the people I work with as CTO. Bringing on someone else and me doing other things, maybe Product, would change that.
  - decentiguess 6y ago
    Well sure CTO has different responsibilities. My point is that if you really care about the company you'd do whatever you can to contribute to its overall success. It sounds like you care more about what you do specifically. If you're not getting that with a new CTO it might be best to just leave.
g5095 6y ago
Leave.
runawaybottle 6y ago
What’s your new position and can you negotiate better pay/equity?
- throw_away_cto 6y ago
  > What’s your new position and can you negotiate better pay/equity? I'm kind of in a weird place now with regards to my position so still trying to figure it out. Negotiate a better pay/equity is my current plan.
  - runawaybottle 6y ago
    At least secure a VP position so you can leverage your leadership title when you hit the market again.
    - fuzzfactor 6y ago
      If the new CTO is so great he'll be moving up & out eventually and by then you can (re)fill his shoes better than he did the whole time. If he's not so great you'll exceed his abilities after a while and become truly more valuable, especially to this particular company where you were the original CTO. That would also be when other pastures are the greenest. It's not revenge, it could be considered a business requirement that you now focus on the technology itself until you far exceed the acceptable benchmarks set by the new leader/decision-maker, while also building from experience the ability to avoid their type of leadership & decision-making weaknesses that become apparent, without you having to carry ultimate blame for failures along the way.
rgrs 6y ago
And remember respect is everything! ~gta2
- throw_away_cto 6y ago
  Correct! I took it nicely and always, still with respect.
shoo 6y ago
It is just business -- if the CEO & VC have the power to replace you, and believe that replacing you with a more experienced candidate is, after consideration of the downside (the potential that you and some of your team might quit), a bet that is likely to result in a more valuable / more successful business, then from their perspective it might seem like a sound and profitable business decision to replace you. You haven't talked about what you want -- that might be worth thinking about, when you're in a place where you can mull it over in a fairly unemotional way. Do you want: enough wealth to be retired in 5 years/buy a house/whatever; a C-suite job with high status ; a job with a large degree of autonomy and responsibility ; to gain experience growing an engineering organization ; to gain experience shipping a great service/product ; revenge ; ... edit: it is also possible to reframe things as: different people can be a good fit for different phases in a company's lifecycle -- instead of staying with a single growing company for a long time, there could be a quite interesting and profitable career in jumping from early-stage company to early-stage company and helping them get on a good trajectory for future expansion
- throw_away_cto 6y ago
  I want: - enough wealth to be retired in 5 years/buy a house/whatever - a C-suite job with high status - a job with a large degree of autonomy and responsibility - to gain experience growing an engineering organization - to gain experience shipping a great service/product But DEFINITELY NOT revenge. Selfishly speaking, I want all the above but to do it myself and go through the journey myself. Bringing the experienced person onboard will not give me the front seat of the journey which might be selfish. But what do we live for if not to live our lives and make decisions and risks and to be accountable for them? On the VC side of course they will pick the safest route to a successful exit and return. I just think it's unfair but justifiable.
  - shoo 6y ago
    the next exercise might be to rank the wants from most to least important, & consider if some of those wants are things you are willing to defer if they're not immediately available now, and what your longer-term paths to attaining them could be. e.g. for myself, i want autonomy, and my strategy for getting that autonomy (perhaps sub optimal) is building wealth. the wealth in itself isn't really an end in itself, just fuel. but the path to build the wealth is grinding away at a high-paying job that happens to have relatively low autonomy and status -- so my path to achieve my longer-term goal is to roughly do the opposite of what i want in the short run.
mindcrime 6y ago
Do you have significant equity which you retain even after your ouster? If so, I say pack it up, go on to something else, and hope that they succeed wildly and your equity becomes a huge windfall somewhere down the line. If not, it's just a job anyway, and if the CEO really doesn't want you there, you're probably not going to be happy even if you somehow win this fight. In which case, I say negotiate as hard as you can for the best possible severance deal, preferably cash in hand and not equity, and then move on to your next thing. Wish them luck if you feel like it. In the end, remember that you are not defined by someone else's judgment of your merit and abilities. The only that matters is your view. Go start something new, and kick ass. Laugh at those guys when you roll past them on the street in your Aston Martin Victor.
- throw_away_cto 6y ago
  > Do you have significant equity which you retain even after your ouster? Yes. > In which case, I say negotiate as hard as you can for the best possible severance deal, preferably cash in hand and not equity, and then move on to your next thing. Wish them luck if you feel like it. Interesting. I will probably negotiate a severance deal but not sure I have leverage at this moment. I'm imagining they would just laugh at it and just fire me vs giving me a good severance deal. > In the end, remember that you are not defined by someone else's judgment of your merit and abilities. The only that matters is your view. Go start something new, and kick ass. Laugh at those guys when you roll past them on the street in your Aston Martin Victor. Thanks for this! This is definitely my plan. And will probably roll in an Aston Martin Vantage than a Victor :)
yosefjaved1 6y ago
That's tough to say, but I understand the confusion on what to do. It's a challenging situation to be in. I do know this - this decision will affect more than just you, and you see that based on how the rest of your team is reacting. I would recommend you listen to this talk from Ben Horowitz lecture on YC's How to Start a Startup series. It goes over a similar situation that you are experiencing with being demoted. It will give you perspective. Here's a link. It's lecture 15 in the series: https://startupclass.samaltman.com/ https://startupclass.samaltman.com/
stevenalowe 6y ago
What’s best for the company? How/where can you help the most going forward?
joshxyz 6y ago
It's all good imo, I assume that removes some load on your work without reducing your salary. If you're still not getting the hint, it's an opportunity for you to build some side-business, an additional stream of cash-flow. Cash-flow is king, not corporate positions.
segmondy 6y ago
obviously you were not "delivering" or they won't have pushed you out, why would they hire someone and pay someone if you were not "under performing"? the problem is they didn't communicate to you what you really need to be doing and you didn't realize it. it might be that technically you are doing everything right, but politically you are doing it all wrong. working is not just about doing the actual work, but also about the performance of a work. with that said, if you believe in the company, mission, product, then don't think much about it. you can become director of engineering, vp of engineering, etc. find a way to make yourself very useful and keep contributing. ... imagine this company was the next google, facebook, amazon, would you leave? so back to the question, do you believe in the company, mission and product? for all you know, the new CTO might actually hate it and quit in less than a year.
rasz 6y ago
>CEO and VC ... the CTO ... My team ... I'm doing a decent job so have you delivered anything sellable yet? Sometimes VC funded companies arent all about burning the seed round while having a good time.
UK-Al05 6y ago
Bit odd to base it of a github repo. I've met some prolific open source people who work terribly inside a product team.
giantg2 6y ago
I think what they did could be reasonable depending on the details. I do question why they are keeping you at the (small?) company. It seems like they could be making a big mess if your subordinates feel more loyal to you than the new guy. If I were a worker there, I wouldn't feel too good about my future if I find out you were demoted for political reasons.

curmudgeon22 6y ago

A lot of details unknown, so difficult to say. I’m inclined to say fight for it, you’re the incumbent with vision for the company, a deep understanding of the current situation and trust of the team. We’re you a part of selecting the new ceo? How old is the company and we’re you a founder?

throw_away_cto 6y ago
> We’re you a part of selecting the new ceo? No, I was not. > How old is the company and we’re you a founder? 5 years and we got it to a profitable position. And no, I am not a founder but a consultant turned CTO and pushed hard on technology and decisions that helped us partner with a Fortune 100 company.

decentiguess 6y ago

Why care about the title? If you really care about the company and want to see it succeed then you should welcome someone with more experience. If things go great maybe the outsider leaves and you slide in and replace him with the extra knowledge you gained from working with him. If things don't go great then it wasn't your fault when you're interviewing for your next role.

throw_away_cto 6y ago
> Why care about the title? I would say I care more about the responsibilities and the people I work with as CTO. Bringing on someone else and me doing other things, maybe Product, would change that.
- decentiguess 6y ago
  Well sure CTO has different responsibilities. My point is that if you really care about the company you'd do whatever you can to contribute to its overall success. It sounds like you care more about what you do specifically. If you're not getting that with a new CTO it might be best to just leave.

g5095 6y ago

Leave.

runawaybottle 6y ago

What’s your new position and can you negotiate better pay/equity?

throw_away_cto 6y ago
> What’s your new position and can you negotiate better pay/equity? I'm kind of in a weird place now with regards to my position so still trying to figure it out. Negotiate a better pay/equity is my current plan.
- runawaybottle 6y ago
  At least secure a VP position so you can leverage your leadership title when you hit the market again.
  - fuzzfactor 6y ago
    If the new CTO is so great he'll be moving up & out eventually and by then you can (re)fill his shoes better than he did the whole time. If he's not so great you'll exceed his abilities after a while and become truly more valuable, especially to this particular company where you were the original CTO. That would also be when other pastures are the greenest. It's not revenge, it could be considered a business requirement that you now focus on the technology itself until you far exceed the acceptable benchmarks set by the new leader/decision-maker, while also building from experience the ability to avoid their type of leadership & decision-making weaknesses that become apparent, without you having to carry ultimate blame for failures along the way.

rgrs 6y ago

And remember respect is everything! ~gta2

throw_away_cto 6y ago
Correct! I took it nicely and always, still with respect.

shoo 6y ago

It is just business -- if the CEO & VC have the power to replace you, and believe that replacing you with a more experienced candidate is, after consideration of the downside (the potential that you and some of your team might quit), a bet that is likely to result in a more valuable / more successful business, then from their perspective it might seem like a sound and profitable business decision to replace you. You haven't talked about what you want -- that might be worth thinking about, when you're in a place where you can mull it over in a fairly unemotional way. Do you want: enough wealth to be retired in 5 years/buy a house/whatever; a C-suite job with high status ; a job with a large degree of autonomy and responsibility ; to gain experience growing an engineering organization ; to gain experience shipping a great service/product ; revenge ; ... edit: it is also possible to reframe things as: different people can be a good fit for different phases in a company's lifecycle -- instead of staying with a single growing company for a long time, there could be a quite interesting and profitable career in jumping from early-stage company to early-stage company and helping them get on a good trajectory for future expansion

throw_away_cto 6y ago
I want: - enough wealth to be retired in 5 years/buy a house/whatever - a C-suite job with high status - a job with a large degree of autonomy and responsibility - to gain experience growing an engineering organization - to gain experience shipping a great service/product But DEFINITELY NOT revenge. Selfishly speaking, I want all the above but to do it myself and go through the journey myself. Bringing the experienced person onboard will not give me the front seat of the journey which might be selfish. But what do we live for if not to live our lives and make decisions and risks and to be accountable for them? On the VC side of course they will pick the safest route to a successful exit and return. I just think it's unfair but justifiable.
- shoo 6y ago
  the next exercise might be to rank the wants from most to least important, & consider if some of those wants are things you are willing to defer if they're not immediately available now, and what your longer-term paths to attaining them could be. e.g. for myself, i want autonomy, and my strategy for getting that autonomy (perhaps sub optimal) is building wealth. the wealth in itself isn't really an end in itself, just fuel. but the path to build the wealth is grinding away at a high-paying job that happens to have relatively low autonomy and status -- so my path to achieve my longer-term goal is to roughly do the opposite of what i want in the short run.

mindcrime 6y ago

Do you have significant equity which you retain even after your ouster? If so, I say pack it up, go on to something else, and hope that they succeed wildly and your equity becomes a huge windfall somewhere down the line. If not, it's just a job anyway, and if the CEO really doesn't want you there, you're probably not going to be happy even if you somehow win this fight. In which case, I say negotiate as hard as you can for the best possible severance deal, preferably cash in hand and not equity, and then move on to your next thing. Wish them luck if you feel like it. In the end, remember that you are not defined by someone else's judgment of your merit and abilities. The only that matters is your view. Go start something new, and kick ass. Laugh at those guys when you roll past them on the street in your Aston Martin Victor.

throw_away_cto 6y ago
> Do you have significant equity which you retain even after your ouster? Yes. > In which case, I say negotiate as hard as you can for the best possible severance deal, preferably cash in hand and not equity, and then move on to your next thing. Wish them luck if you feel like it. Interesting. I will probably negotiate a severance deal but not sure I have leverage at this moment. I'm imagining they would just laugh at it and just fire me vs giving me a good severance deal. > In the end, remember that you are not defined by someone else's judgment of your merit and abilities. The only that matters is your view. Go start something new, and kick ass. Laugh at those guys when you roll past them on the street in your Aston Martin Victor. Thanks for this! This is definitely my plan. And will probably roll in an Aston Martin Vantage than a Victor :)

yosefjaved1 6y ago

That's tough to say, but I understand the confusion on what to do. It's a challenging situation to be in. I do know this - this decision will affect more than just you, and you see that based on how the rest of your team is reacting. I would recommend you listen to this talk from Ben Horowitz lecture on YC's How to Start a Startup series. It goes over a similar situation that you are experiencing with being demoted. It will give you perspective. Here's a link. It's lecture 15 in the series: https://startupclass.samaltman.com/ https://startupclass.samaltman.com/

stevenalowe 6y ago

What’s best for the company? How/where can you help the most going forward?

joshxyz 6y ago

It's all good imo, I assume that removes some load on your work without reducing your salary. If you're still not getting the hint, it's an opportunity for you to build some side-business, an additional stream of cash-flow. Cash-flow is king, not corporate positions.

segmondy 6y ago

obviously you were not "delivering" or they won't have pushed you out, why would they hire someone and pay someone if you were not "under performing"? the problem is they didn't communicate to you what you really need to be doing and you didn't realize it. it might be that technically you are doing everything right, but politically you are doing it all wrong. working is not just about doing the actual work, but also about the performance of a work. with that said, if you believe in the company, mission, product, then don't think much about it. you can become director of engineering, vp of engineering, etc. find a way to make yourself very useful and keep contributing. ... imagine this company was the next google, facebook, amazon, would you leave? so back to the question, do you believe in the company, mission and product? for all you know, the new CTO might actually hate it and quit in less than a year.

rasz 6y ago

>CEO and VC ... the CTO ... My team ... I'm doing a decent job so have you delivered anything sellable yet? Sometimes VC funded companies arent all about burning the seed round while having a good time.

UK-Al05 6y ago

Bit odd to base it of a github repo. I've met some prolific open source people who work terribly inside a product team.

giantg2 6y ago

I think what they did could be reasonable depending on the details. I do question why they are keeping you at the (small?) company. It seems like they could be making a big mess if your subordinates feel more loyal to you than the new guy. If I were a worker there, I wouldn't feel too good about my future if I find out you were demoted for political reasons.