11 ms·

Honest question, do you not have a 401(k) or similar? I certainly have a vested interest in seeing a healthy, sustainable stock market over the long term. Not b

by gred 6y ago

Honest question, do you not have a 401(k) or similar? I certainly have a vested interest in seeing a healthy, sustainable stock market over the long term. Not because I'm part of the 1%, but because my upper-middle class retirement depends on it.

runarberg 6y ago
idk. It seems like a savings account could do the trick. You can save a healthy retirement by putting a portion of your salaries in a savings account in your local credit union. As a bonus—while you are not using that money—other members of your credit union can use this savings in a form of a loan, to buy a home, start a business, etc. The idea of my retirement being at the will of some hedgefund manager is not appealing next to the idea of my retirement being used temporary to help my neighbors buying a house or start a business.
- kinghajj 6y ago
  > It seems like a savings account could do the trick. You can save a healthy retirement by putting a portion of your salaries in a savings account in your local credit union. With interest rates as low as they are, savings accounts have a negative real return. The $1000 you save today would have substantially less purchasing power by the time you'd retire. > As a bonus—while you are not using that money—other members of your credit union can use this savings in a form of a loan, to buy a home, start a business, etc. Well, yes and no. Banks don't really directly lend out the money deposited in savings accounts, due to fractional reserve requirements. > The idea of my retirement being at the will of some hedgefund manager is not appealing next to the idea of my retirement being used temporary to help my neighbors buying a house or start a business. I don't get this. With an IRA or a personal taxed brokerage account, you aren't at the mercy of anyone: you can choose which companies & funds to invest in. Hedge funds are not the be-all-and-end-all of the stock market, most funds are mutual funds who invest conservatively. If you just mean that hedge funds can cause black swan events like what we're seeing with GME, then sure, that's a concern, but only for the short term. Long-term, the stock market tends to appreciate and substantially beat inflation. We can add regulations to prevent hedge funds from fucking things up, without tearing the entire system down.
  - runarberg 6y ago
    Well in my ideal situation, the stock markets have already crashed and burned. My argument above is not that savings accounts are optimal for me personally, but that they are an alternative to the stock market. Better yet, an alternative which is far more worker friendly as they don’t rely on taking the profits from the workers and putting giving them to the shareholders.
    - Alupis 6y ago
      You might be missing the issue here. A savings account will cost you money in the long term - ie. your purchase power will decrease every year because the interest paid on savings accounts does not even keep up with inflation. The longer and more money you have in a savings account, the less purchase power you actually have. Think of this like putting $100 into the account but only being able to spend $90 of it. Multiply that by your life's savings... and this becomes a horrible way to save for retirement. A Money Market account would be better, and nearly as safe as a savings account. IRA's and 401(k) where you control you money is ideal. If you don't want to be bothered to pay attention to the markets... get yourself a managed IRA (yes, a fund would then be in control of your future). With a managed portfolio, you generally get some say over how your money is invested - so you could direct them to invest in industrializing economies (which would help lift people out of poverty over time). Just because you make money on the stock market doesn't mean someone is getting screwed over... Bottom line is, a savings account will lose you money over time (and that doesn't even touch on the maximum amount you can have per account to be insured, which is far less than you'll need for retirement).
      - tartoran 6y ago
        I think the parent is talking about an ideal situation in which saving accounts do actually pay off a nice interest that beats the inflation and sprinkle some extra profit on top. Not a lot but it is risk free. Isn’t the idea that banks make the money flow by circulating it around a good one? A saver who doesn’t need it now can park it in a bank and when their time to retire comes they get their actualized money plus some profit. And since the interest compounds, with a nice rate it could be both safe and profitable. I agree that this is not feasible now but that is only becaus of the low interest. That dynamic would change if the interest is dialed up.
- xienze 6y ago
  > You can save a healthy retirement by putting a portion of your salaries in a savings account in your local credit union. You must be joking. My credit union is offering .1% on savings, and it’s not like they’re some extreme outlier, rates are incredibly low across the board. You are actively harming your future by doing this, you aren’t even keeping up with inflation!
  - runarberg 6y ago
    No I’m not joking, nor am I harming my future. I don’t have to make an optimal amount of growth on my savings to afford my retirement. There is no harm in owning less money then if I had used them to swindle more workers out of their profits on the open markets. In fact, every dollar you make as a result of not working is a dollar somebody else worked for and didn’t get. You are harming workers by earning money on the stock markets.
    - Alupis 6y ago
      You do understand where the "interest" comes from on your savings account right? The bank doesn't just invent it... And largely speaking, when you make money on the stock market it comes from a multitude of sources, including the hedge funds you seem to despise. Not to mention, just because you made a profit on the market doesn't mean someone was screwed over. The stock is worth whatever it's worth when you sold it. It's an open market... You do seem to have some fundamentals about the stock market, savings account, and finance a little mixed up.
      - runarberg 6y ago
        idk. I simply don’t like the fact that people are gambling with my workplace. And I especially don’t like it when shareholders pocket parts of the profit that I made them without bringing anything of value to the company. I don’t despise hedge funds any more then I despise the stock market as a whole. We don’t need it. In fact I would argue that the existence of the stock market is actively harmful. I would go so far as stating the stock market is partially to blame for the current climate crisis. That is, if it wasn’t for the stock market, perhaps people would have acted sooner and prevented the climate emergency. But fundamentally the stuck market is an idiotic idea. If we didn’t have stock markets, and someone pitch the idea of the first stock market here on HN, I don’t see how any businesses would subject them self to being bought and sold like that.

by gred 6y ago

runarberg 6y ago

idk. It seems like a savings account could do the trick. You can save a healthy retirement by putting a portion of your salaries in a savings account in your local credit union. As a bonus—while you are not using that money—other members of your credit union can use this savings in a form of a loan, to buy a home, start a business, etc. The idea of my retirement being at the will of some hedgefund manager is not appealing next to the idea of my retirement being used temporary to help my neighbors buying a house or start a business.

kinghajj 6y ago
> It seems like a savings account could do the trick. You can save a healthy retirement by putting a portion of your salaries in a savings account in your local credit union. With interest rates as low as they are, savings accounts have a negative real return. The $1000 you save today would have substantially less purchasing power by the time you'd retire. > As a bonus—while you are not using that money—other members of your credit union can use this savings in a form of a loan, to buy a home, start a business, etc. Well, yes and no. Banks don't really directly lend out the money deposited in savings accounts, due to fractional reserve requirements. > The idea of my retirement being at the will of some hedgefund manager is not appealing next to the idea of my retirement being used temporary to help my neighbors buying a house or start a business. I don't get this. With an IRA or a personal taxed brokerage account, you aren't at the mercy of anyone: you can choose which companies & funds to invest in. Hedge funds are not the be-all-and-end-all of the stock market, most funds are mutual funds who invest conservatively. If you just mean that hedge funds can cause black swan events like what we're seeing with GME, then sure, that's a concern, but only for the short term. Long-term, the stock market tends to appreciate and substantially beat inflation. We can add regulations to prevent hedge funds from fucking things up, without tearing the entire system down.
- runarberg 6y ago
  Well in my ideal situation, the stock markets have already crashed and burned. My argument above is not that savings accounts are optimal for me personally, but that they are an alternative to the stock market. Better yet, an alternative which is far more worker friendly as they don’t rely on taking the profits from the workers and putting giving them to the shareholders.
  - Alupis 6y ago
    You might be missing the issue here. A savings account will cost you money in the long term - ie. your purchase power will decrease every year because the interest paid on savings accounts does not even keep up with inflation. The longer and more money you have in a savings account, the less purchase power you actually have. Think of this like putting $100 into the account but only being able to spend $90 of it. Multiply that by your life's savings... and this becomes a horrible way to save for retirement. A Money Market account would be better, and nearly as safe as a savings account. IRA's and 401(k) where you control you money is ideal. If you don't want to be bothered to pay attention to the markets... get yourself a managed IRA (yes, a fund would then be in control of your future). With a managed portfolio, you generally get some say over how your money is invested - so you could direct them to invest in industrializing economies (which would help lift people out of poverty over time). Just because you make money on the stock market doesn't mean someone is getting screwed over... Bottom line is, a savings account will lose you money over time (and that doesn't even touch on the maximum amount you can have per account to be insured, which is far less than you'll need for retirement).
    - tartoran 6y ago
      I think the parent is talking about an ideal situation in which saving accounts do actually pay off a nice interest that beats the inflation and sprinkle some extra profit on top. Not a lot but it is risk free. Isn’t the idea that banks make the money flow by circulating it around a good one? A saver who doesn’t need it now can park it in a bank and when their time to retire comes they get their actualized money plus some profit. And since the interest compounds, with a nice rate it could be both safe and profitable. I agree that this is not feasible now but that is only becaus of the low interest. That dynamic would change if the interest is dialed up.
xienze 6y ago
> You can save a healthy retirement by putting a portion of your salaries in a savings account in your local credit union. You must be joking. My credit union is offering .1% on savings, and it’s not like they’re some extreme outlier, rates are incredibly low across the board. You are actively harming your future by doing this, you aren’t even keeping up with inflation!
- runarberg 6y ago
  No I’m not joking, nor am I harming my future. I don’t have to make an optimal amount of growth on my savings to afford my retirement. There is no harm in owning less money then if I had used them to swindle more workers out of their profits on the open markets. In fact, every dollar you make as a result of not working is a dollar somebody else worked for and didn’t get. You are harming workers by earning money on the stock markets.
  - Alupis 6y ago
    You do understand where the "interest" comes from on your savings account right? The bank doesn't just invent it... And largely speaking, when you make money on the stock market it comes from a multitude of sources, including the hedge funds you seem to despise. Not to mention, just because you made a profit on the market doesn't mean someone was screwed over. The stock is worth whatever it's worth when you sold it. It's an open market... You do seem to have some fundamentals about the stock market, savings account, and finance a little mixed up.
    - runarberg 6y ago
      idk. I simply don’t like the fact that people are gambling with my workplace. And I especially don’t like it when shareholders pocket parts of the profit that I made them without bringing anything of value to the company. I don’t despise hedge funds any more then I despise the stock market as a whole. We don’t need it. In fact I would argue that the existence of the stock market is actively harmful. I would go so far as stating the stock market is partially to blame for the current climate crisis. That is, if it wasn’t for the stock market, perhaps people would have acted sooner and prevented the climate emergency. But fundamentally the stuck market is an idiotic idea. If we didn’t have stock markets, and someone pitch the idea of the first stock market here on HN, I don’t see how any businesses would subject them self to being bought and sold like that.