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> I would not be surprised if this is the beginning of another stock market crash. Good. Let it crash and burn. The stock market has never done anything for me

> I would not be surprised if this is the beginning of another stock market crash. Good. Let it crash and burn. The stock market has never done anything for me. Shareholders making money out of my work is not exactly in my interests, nor is it in the interest of the majority of the world’s workers. My only wish is that this time around the stock markets will stay down after they burn, and be remembered in history as the idiotic idea that it truly is.

gred 6y ago
Honest question, do you not have a 401(k) or similar? I certainly have a vested interest in seeing a healthy, sustainable stock market over the long term. Not because I'm part of the 1%, but because my upper-middle class retirement depends on it.
- runarberg 6y ago
  idk. It seems like a savings account could do the trick. You can save a healthy retirement by putting a portion of your salaries in a savings account in your local credit union. As a bonus—while you are not using that money—other members of your credit union can use this savings in a form of a loan, to buy a home, start a business, etc. The idea of my retirement being at the will of some hedgefund manager is not appealing next to the idea of my retirement being used temporary to help my neighbors buying a house or start a business.
  - kinghajj 6y ago
    > It seems like a savings account could do the trick. You can save a healthy retirement by putting a portion of your salaries in a savings account in your local credit union. With interest rates as low as they are, savings accounts have a negative real return. The $1000 you save today would have substantially less purchasing power by the time you'd retire. > As a bonus—while you are not using that money—other members of your credit union can use this savings in a form of a loan, to buy a home, start a business, etc. Well, yes and no. Banks don't really directly lend out the money deposited in savings accounts, due to fractional reserve requirements. > The idea of my retirement being at the will of some hedgefund manager is not appealing next to the idea of my retirement being used temporary to help my neighbors buying a house or start a business. I don't get this. With an IRA or a personal taxed brokerage account, you aren't at the mercy of anyone: you can choose which companies & funds to invest in. Hedge funds are not the be-all-and-end-all of the stock market, most funds are mutual funds who invest conservatively. If you just mean that hedge funds can cause black swan events like what we're seeing with GME, then sure, that's a concern, but only for the short term. Long-term, the stock market tends to appreciate and substantially beat inflation. We can add regulations to prevent hedge funds from fucking things up, without tearing the entire system down.
    - runarberg 6y ago
      Well in my ideal situation, the stock markets have already crashed and burned. My argument above is not that savings accounts are optimal for me personally, but that they are an alternative to the stock market. Better yet, an alternative which is far more worker friendly as they don’t rely on taking the profits from the workers and putting giving them to the shareholders.
      - Alupis 6y ago
        You might be missing the issue here. A savings account will cost you money in the long term - ie. your purchase power will decrease every year because the interest paid on savings accounts does not even keep up with inflation. The longer and more money you have in a savings account, the less purchase power you actually have. Think of this like putting $100 into the account but only being able to spend $90 of it. Multiply that by your life's savings... and this becomes a horrible way to save for retirement. A Money Market account would be better, and nearly as safe as a savings account. IRA's and 401(k) where you control you money is ideal. If you don't want to be bothered to pay attention to the markets... get yourself a managed IRA (yes, a fund would then be in control of your future). With a managed portfolio, you generally get some say over how your money is invested - so you could direct them to invest in industrializing economies (which would help lift people out of poverty over time). Just because you make money on the stock market doesn't mean someone is getting screwed over... Bottom line is, a savings account will lose you money over time (and that doesn't even touch on the maximum amount you can have per account to be insured, which is far less than you'll need for retirement).
        tartoran 6y ago
        I think the parent is talking about an ideal situation in which saving accounts do actually pay off a nice interest that beats the inflation and sprinkle some extra profit on top. Not a lot but it is risk free. Isn’t the idea that banks make the money flow by circulating it around a good one? A saver who doesn’t need it now can park it in a bank and when their time to retire comes they get their actualized money plus some profit. And since the interest compounds, with a nice rate it could be both safe and profitable. I agree that this is not feasible now but that is only becaus of the low interest. That dynamic would change if the interest is dialed up.
  - xienze 6y ago
    > You can save a healthy retirement by putting a portion of your salaries in a savings account in your local credit union. You must be joking. My credit union is offering .1% on savings, and it’s not like they’re some extreme outlier, rates are incredibly low across the board. You are actively harming your future by doing this, you aren’t even keeping up with inflation!
    - runarberg 6y ago
      No I’m not joking, nor am I harming my future. I don’t have to make an optimal amount of growth on my savings to afford my retirement. There is no harm in owning less money then if I had used them to swindle more workers out of their profits on the open markets. In fact, every dollar you make as a result of not working is a dollar somebody else worked for and didn’t get. You are harming workers by earning money on the stock markets.
      - Alupis 6y ago
        You do understand where the "interest" comes from on your savings account right? The bank doesn't just invent it... And largely speaking, when you make money on the stock market it comes from a multitude of sources, including the hedge funds you seem to despise. Not to mention, just because you made a profit on the market doesn't mean someone was screwed over. The stock is worth whatever it's worth when you sold it. It's an open market... You do seem to have some fundamentals about the stock market, savings account, and finance a little mixed up.
        runarberg 6y ago
        idk. I simply don’t like the fact that people are gambling with my workplace. And I especially don’t like it when shareholders pocket parts of the profit that I made them without bringing anything of value to the company. I don’t despise hedge funds any more then I despise the stock market as a whole. We don’t need it. In fact I would argue that the existence of the stock market is actively harmful. I would go so far as stating the stock market is partially to blame for the current climate crisis. That is, if it wasn’t for the stock market, perhaps people would have acted sooner and prevented the climate emergency. But fundamentally the stuck market is an idiotic idea. If we didn’t have stock markets, and someone pitch the idea of the first stock market here on HN, I don’t see how any businesses would subject them self to being bought and sold like that.
christophilus 6y ago
It’s a pretty decent idea, at least in theory. Prior to stocks, it was difficult for the little guy to own a piece of a company. I certainly don’t have the money or time to get a stake of a private company, and I’m glad to be able to participate in the compounding machines that are well-managed companies.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
kinghajj 6y ago
> The stock market has never done anything for me. I mean, it could, if you were to invest. > Shareholders making money out of my work is not exactly in my interests, nor is it in the interest of the majority of the world’s workers. So instead of, say, encouraging people to learn how to invest, and maybe even incentivizing firms to allocate shares to their employees, you'd rather just have the whole stock market burn to the ground?
- runarberg 6y ago
  Statistically, in a zero sum game, where all players are equally skilled and the winner of each transaction is determined at random. The more transaction made, the more the wealth accumulates. What this means is, that unless you are already one of the richest person on the stock markets, your most likely outcome is that you will loose money by participating. So—unless you are already rich—your optimal strategy is not to participate in the stock markets.
  - kinghajj 6y ago
    The stock market--just like the economy--is not a zero-sum game. I don't know what to tell you. The S&P500 over the long term has consistently performed quite well, for many decades. Maybe if your picture of participating in the stock market involves day trading, sure, statistically the majority of people who try will break even or come out with a loss. But that's not what financial advisers recommend average people do! You should be doing a daily cost average by setting aside a small portion of your income to invest, ideally in a tax-advantaged IRA (or 401k if your employer offers one.)
    - runarberg 6y ago
      Thank you, but I prefer a savings account at my local credit union. I’m sure the interests will amount to something similar as what some random hedgefund manager can conjure by gaming the market. If not, then I can live with it, knowing that what little interest I earned, at least it wasn’t earned by taking profits out of other workers. And in the best case scenario my savings got lent out to other members of my credit union that used it to buy homes or start businesses in my community.
IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
I think your argument is better stated in that you don't see value from predatory capital vs sweat capital. I can see the aversion to HF / VC. But you can't use that broad brush to paint all investment capital as predatory. First, I can infer that your aversion to capital is due to vulture funds that have been known to extract money from perfect viable companies via buyouts (i.e. thinking "barbarians at the gates" type investments) for example. However, the solution is not just to put everything in a savings account and disregard everything else is predatory. How did we get here ? How did these funds come to exist ? Why are savers getting hurt and vultures making bank ? That's what you should really be questioning. I think a much better argument can be made in that you would much rather increase interest rates, and stop the profilgate money lending by the fed, so that extremely cheap capital would not be available for these vultures to exist. How do you back such scenario by direct action ? I don't know. However, i know you are not contributing to utopia by wasting your investment capital by letting it slowly burn in a savings account.

gred 6y ago

Honest question, do you not have a 401(k) or similar? I certainly have a vested interest in seeing a healthy, sustainable stock market over the long term. Not because I'm part of the 1%, but because my upper-middle class retirement depends on it.

runarberg 6y ago
idk. It seems like a savings account could do the trick. You can save a healthy retirement by putting a portion of your salaries in a savings account in your local credit union. As a bonus—while you are not using that money—other members of your credit union can use this savings in a form of a loan, to buy a home, start a business, etc. The idea of my retirement being at the will of some hedgefund manager is not appealing next to the idea of my retirement being used temporary to help my neighbors buying a house or start a business.
- kinghajj 6y ago
  > It seems like a savings account could do the trick. You can save a healthy retirement by putting a portion of your salaries in a savings account in your local credit union. With interest rates as low as they are, savings accounts have a negative real return. The $1000 you save today would have substantially less purchasing power by the time you'd retire. > As a bonus—while you are not using that money—other members of your credit union can use this savings in a form of a loan, to buy a home, start a business, etc. Well, yes and no. Banks don't really directly lend out the money deposited in savings accounts, due to fractional reserve requirements. > The idea of my retirement being at the will of some hedgefund manager is not appealing next to the idea of my retirement being used temporary to help my neighbors buying a house or start a business. I don't get this. With an IRA or a personal taxed brokerage account, you aren't at the mercy of anyone: you can choose which companies & funds to invest in. Hedge funds are not the be-all-and-end-all of the stock market, most funds are mutual funds who invest conservatively. If you just mean that hedge funds can cause black swan events like what we're seeing with GME, then sure, that's a concern, but only for the short term. Long-term, the stock market tends to appreciate and substantially beat inflation. We can add regulations to prevent hedge funds from fucking things up, without tearing the entire system down.
  - runarberg 6y ago
    Well in my ideal situation, the stock markets have already crashed and burned. My argument above is not that savings accounts are optimal for me personally, but that they are an alternative to the stock market. Better yet, an alternative which is far more worker friendly as they don’t rely on taking the profits from the workers and putting giving them to the shareholders.
    - Alupis 6y ago
      You might be missing the issue here. A savings account will cost you money in the long term - ie. your purchase power will decrease every year because the interest paid on savings accounts does not even keep up with inflation. The longer and more money you have in a savings account, the less purchase power you actually have. Think of this like putting $100 into the account but only being able to spend $90 of it. Multiply that by your life's savings... and this becomes a horrible way to save for retirement. A Money Market account would be better, and nearly as safe as a savings account. IRA's and 401(k) where you control you money is ideal. If you don't want to be bothered to pay attention to the markets... get yourself a managed IRA (yes, a fund would then be in control of your future). With a managed portfolio, you generally get some say over how your money is invested - so you could direct them to invest in industrializing economies (which would help lift people out of poverty over time). Just because you make money on the stock market doesn't mean someone is getting screwed over... Bottom line is, a savings account will lose you money over time (and that doesn't even touch on the maximum amount you can have per account to be insured, which is far less than you'll need for retirement).
      - tartoran 6y ago
        I think the parent is talking about an ideal situation in which saving accounts do actually pay off a nice interest that beats the inflation and sprinkle some extra profit on top. Not a lot but it is risk free. Isn’t the idea that banks make the money flow by circulating it around a good one? A saver who doesn’t need it now can park it in a bank and when their time to retire comes they get their actualized money plus some profit. And since the interest compounds, with a nice rate it could be both safe and profitable. I agree that this is not feasible now but that is only becaus of the low interest. That dynamic would change if the interest is dialed up.
- xienze 6y ago
  > You can save a healthy retirement by putting a portion of your salaries in a savings account in your local credit union. You must be joking. My credit union is offering .1% on savings, and it’s not like they’re some extreme outlier, rates are incredibly low across the board. You are actively harming your future by doing this, you aren’t even keeping up with inflation!
  - runarberg 6y ago
    No I’m not joking, nor am I harming my future. I don’t have to make an optimal amount of growth on my savings to afford my retirement. There is no harm in owning less money then if I had used them to swindle more workers out of their profits on the open markets. In fact, every dollar you make as a result of not working is a dollar somebody else worked for and didn’t get. You are harming workers by earning money on the stock markets.
    - Alupis 6y ago
      You do understand where the "interest" comes from on your savings account right? The bank doesn't just invent it... And largely speaking, when you make money on the stock market it comes from a multitude of sources, including the hedge funds you seem to despise. Not to mention, just because you made a profit on the market doesn't mean someone was screwed over. The stock is worth whatever it's worth when you sold it. It's an open market... You do seem to have some fundamentals about the stock market, savings account, and finance a little mixed up.
      - runarberg 6y ago
        idk. I simply don’t like the fact that people are gambling with my workplace. And I especially don’t like it when shareholders pocket parts of the profit that I made them without bringing anything of value to the company. I don’t despise hedge funds any more then I despise the stock market as a whole. We don’t need it. In fact I would argue that the existence of the stock market is actively harmful. I would go so far as stating the stock market is partially to blame for the current climate crisis. That is, if it wasn’t for the stock market, perhaps people would have acted sooner and prevented the climate emergency. But fundamentally the stuck market is an idiotic idea. If we didn’t have stock markets, and someone pitch the idea of the first stock market here on HN, I don’t see how any businesses would subject them self to being bought and sold like that.

christophilus 6y ago

It’s a pretty decent idea, at least in theory. Prior to stocks, it was difficult for the little guy to own a piece of a company. I certainly don’t have the money or time to get a stake of a private company, and I’m glad to be able to participate in the compounding machines that are well-managed companies.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

kinghajj 6y ago

> The stock market has never done anything for me. I mean, it could, if you were to invest. > Shareholders making money out of my work is not exactly in my interests, nor is it in the interest of the majority of the world’s workers. So instead of, say, encouraging people to learn how to invest, and maybe even incentivizing firms to allocate shares to their employees, you'd rather just have the whole stock market burn to the ground?

runarberg 6y ago
Statistically, in a zero sum game, where all players are equally skilled and the winner of each transaction is determined at random. The more transaction made, the more the wealth accumulates. What this means is, that unless you are already one of the richest person on the stock markets, your most likely outcome is that you will loose money by participating. So—unless you are already rich—your optimal strategy is not to participate in the stock markets.
- kinghajj 6y ago
  The stock market--just like the economy--is not a zero-sum game. I don't know what to tell you. The S&P500 over the long term has consistently performed quite well, for many decades. Maybe if your picture of participating in the stock market involves day trading, sure, statistically the majority of people who try will break even or come out with a loss. But that's not what financial advisers recommend average people do! You should be doing a daily cost average by setting aside a small portion of your income to invest, ideally in a tax-advantaged IRA (or 401k if your employer offers one.)
  - runarberg 6y ago
    Thank you, but I prefer a savings account at my local credit union. I’m sure the interests will amount to something similar as what some random hedgefund manager can conjure by gaming the market. If not, then I can live with it, knowing that what little interest I earned, at least it wasn’t earned by taking profits out of other workers. And in the best case scenario my savings got lent out to other members of my credit union that used it to buy homes or start businesses in my community.

IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago

I think your argument is better stated in that you don't see value from predatory capital vs sweat capital. I can see the aversion to HF / VC. But you can't use that broad brush to paint all investment capital as predatory. First, I can infer that your aversion to capital is due to vulture funds that have been known to extract money from perfect viable companies via buyouts (i.e. thinking "barbarians at the gates" type investments) for example. However, the solution is not just to put everything in a savings account and disregard everything else is predatory. How did we get here ? How did these funds come to exist ? Why are savers getting hurt and vultures making bank ? That's what you should really be questioning. I think a much better argument can be made in that you would much rather increase interest rates, and stop the profilgate money lending by the fed, so that extremely cheap capital would not be available for these vultures to exist. How do you back such scenario by direct action ? I don't know. However, i know you are not contributing to utopia by wasting your investment capital by letting it slowly burn in a savings account.