4 ms·

Each time the issue of action to force Apple to open the App Store comes up, I usually mention that Facebook will be the first to open a store. If Facebook pr

by zepto 6y ago

Each time the issue of action to force Apple to open the App Store comes up, I usually mention that Facebook will be the first to open a store. If Facebook prevails, at the very least every developer and every user will have to deal with both Apple’s store and Facebook’s store. We know that Facebook will permit apps which do tracking without consent. This situation is objectively worse for both consumers and developers than what we have now. It’s also worth pointing out that Facebook would be unaffected, or indeed May even benefit if the overall app marketplace contracted due to erosion of user trust.

chairmanwow1 6y ago
Dev's taking a 30% slice of revenue is abject absurdity and multiple stores would force competition on this front.
- zepto 6y ago
  That may be true, but this remedy would still harm both developers and users much more than the 30% does. Having to support multiple stores will cost small developers much more than it does large ones. And having to deal with more scammy apps, and the loss of any tracking prevention will be a pure step backwards for users. Nobody should support this move by Facebook, even if you believe the app market needs reform. A Facebook App Store is obviously not the solution. There is actually no reason why the 30% couldn’t just be regulated directly, e.g. in the way that music performance royalties are regulated.
  - mdoms 6y ago
    I currently have Steam, Epic Game Store, Origin, Battle.net and GOG Galaxy installed on my Windows PC and I don't seem to be running into the problems you describe. What I have is a lot of choice and a bunch of stores competing for my dollar in really interesting and innovative ways which largely benefit me and, often, the smaller developers.
    - mr_toad 6y ago
      It’s interesting to look at the cut that these stores take. Some people seem to be under the impression that competition will drive App Store cuts to single figure percentages, but I doubt it.
    - zepto 6y ago
      Why do you think these stores only exist for games? Why are there not more general app stores for windows?
      - jsmith45 6y ago
        Because average users use very few apps other than the browser, and maybe an office app, and games. On desktop media players are largely avoided in favor of Spotify or the like. Traditional instant message desktop software is all but extinct outside of business realm. Some specialties use more software. Designers use Adobe's stuff. Developers have a lot. Musicians have their own stuff. But honestly, outside of specialists, gaming is the biggest area, and there you most commonly have Discord, OBS (for streamers), video editing software (for youtubers), the games themselves, and possibly some accessory software for specific specialties (like timer programs for speedrunners). Steam even offers a decent chunk of common paid software gamers might want. The free to download software like Discord often see little point in working with Steam, since the stores offer them little of value. Discoverability is the main thing a store can offer them, but most of them rely on word of mouth instead. Outside of Games and Development tools/utilities, I honestly can't remember the last piece of desktop software I purchased. Probably Windows, and Office before that. And I have a LOT LOT more software on my PC than the average user.
dylan604 6y ago
Even if FB does open a store, the apps released on it will still be controlled by the OS of the device. So if iOS still says you can't track, you must get permissions for specific access, then that's how it will be. FB has no control over that.
- zepto 6y ago
  This is just not how it works. Apple’s rules relies on both controlling the API and the App Store rules, to prevent tracking and other kinds of misuse. Facebook’s store simply wouldn’t have rules against fingerprinting etc, and of course the Facebook store app itself could issue and manage tracking identifiers.
  - dylan604 6y ago
    So you're saying that even if a developer doesn't want to bother with the tracking, the FB store will demand you put stuff in to feed their beast? Again, I still say that the device itself will need to grant an app access to things like GPS, etc. If the user says OK to that request, then whatevs, but the OS will still force the app to request permission.
    - zepto 6y ago
      > So you're saying that even if a developer doesn't want to bother with the tracking, the FB store will demand you put stuff in to feed their beast? No - why would this conversation have anything to do with developers who don’t want to do tracking? I’m saying that developers who do want to track users across apps (including anyone who used the Facebook api) would be able to do so without getting user consent. If they couldn’t get an identifier from the OS, they would be able to get one from the store app, so OS based permissions would be irrelevant. > Again, I still say that the device itself will need to grant an app access to things like GPS, etc. If the user says OK to that request, then whatevs, but the OS will still force the app to request permission. This is irrelevant to preventing tracking of user behavior across apps without consent which is what Facebook is arguing for. However you raise a good additional point. An app which asks for GPS to provide a local feature would also be able to sell that data behind the scenes without consent, if the app was sold on a store other than Apple’s. None of this is good.
paxys 6y ago
A Facebook store would be an instant flop because it adds nothing of value to the ecosystem. By your logic why aren't they running a successful store on Android?
- zepto 6y ago
  Facebook makes a bunch of profit right now from selling app install ads. They would instantly start selling those apps themselves. They would also instantly start selling apps that collect user data without consent. Tell me again how that would be a flop?

by zepto 6y ago

chairmanwow1 6y ago

Dev's taking a 30% slice of revenue is abject absurdity and multiple stores would force competition on this front.

zepto 6y ago
That may be true, but this remedy would still harm both developers and users much more than the 30% does. Having to support multiple stores will cost small developers much more than it does large ones. And having to deal with more scammy apps, and the loss of any tracking prevention will be a pure step backwards for users. Nobody should support this move by Facebook, even if you believe the app market needs reform. A Facebook App Store is obviously not the solution. There is actually no reason why the 30% couldn’t just be regulated directly, e.g. in the way that music performance royalties are regulated.
- mdoms 6y ago
  I currently have Steam, Epic Game Store, Origin, Battle.net and GOG Galaxy installed on my Windows PC and I don't seem to be running into the problems you describe. What I have is a lot of choice and a bunch of stores competing for my dollar in really interesting and innovative ways which largely benefit me and, often, the smaller developers.
  - mr_toad 6y ago
    It’s interesting to look at the cut that these stores take. Some people seem to be under the impression that competition will drive App Store cuts to single figure percentages, but I doubt it.
  - zepto 6y ago
    Why do you think these stores only exist for games? Why are there not more general app stores for windows?
    - jsmith45 6y ago
      Because average users use very few apps other than the browser, and maybe an office app, and games. On desktop media players are largely avoided in favor of Spotify or the like. Traditional instant message desktop software is all but extinct outside of business realm. Some specialties use more software. Designers use Adobe's stuff. Developers have a lot. Musicians have their own stuff. But honestly, outside of specialists, gaming is the biggest area, and there you most commonly have Discord, OBS (for streamers), video editing software (for youtubers), the games themselves, and possibly some accessory software for specific specialties (like timer programs for speedrunners). Steam even offers a decent chunk of common paid software gamers might want. The free to download software like Discord often see little point in working with Steam, since the stores offer them little of value. Discoverability is the main thing a store can offer them, but most of them rely on word of mouth instead. Outside of Games and Development tools/utilities, I honestly can't remember the last piece of desktop software I purchased. Probably Windows, and Office before that. And I have a LOT LOT more software on my PC than the average user.

dylan604 6y ago

Even if FB does open a store, the apps released on it will still be controlled by the OS of the device. So if iOS still says you can't track, you must get permissions for specific access, then that's how it will be. FB has no control over that.

zepto 6y ago
This is just not how it works. Apple’s rules relies on both controlling the API and the App Store rules, to prevent tracking and other kinds of misuse. Facebook’s store simply wouldn’t have rules against fingerprinting etc, and of course the Facebook store app itself could issue and manage tracking identifiers.
- dylan604 6y ago
  So you're saying that even if a developer doesn't want to bother with the tracking, the FB store will demand you put stuff in to feed their beast? Again, I still say that the device itself will need to grant an app access to things like GPS, etc. If the user says OK to that request, then whatevs, but the OS will still force the app to request permission.
  - zepto 6y ago
    > So you're saying that even if a developer doesn't want to bother with the tracking, the FB store will demand you put stuff in to feed their beast? No - why would this conversation have anything to do with developers who don’t want to do tracking? I’m saying that developers who do want to track users across apps (including anyone who used the Facebook api) would be able to do so without getting user consent. If they couldn’t get an identifier from the OS, they would be able to get one from the store app, so OS based permissions would be irrelevant. > Again, I still say that the device itself will need to grant an app access to things like GPS, etc. If the user says OK to that request, then whatevs, but the OS will still force the app to request permission. This is irrelevant to preventing tracking of user behavior across apps without consent which is what Facebook is arguing for. However you raise a good additional point. An app which asks for GPS to provide a local feature would also be able to sell that data behind the scenes without consent, if the app was sold on a store other than Apple’s. None of this is good.

paxys 6y ago

A Facebook store would be an instant flop because it adds nothing of value to the ecosystem. By your logic why aren't they running a successful store on Android?

zepto 6y ago
Facebook makes a bunch of profit right now from selling app install ads. They would instantly start selling those apps themselves. They would also instantly start selling apps that collect user data without consent. Tell me again how that would be a flop?