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I can, but it will be basic! I might have to use a JSON file for the backend because I probably can't remember any database libs well enough to use without docu

by dusted 6y ago

I can, but it will be basic! I might have to use a JSON file for the backend because I probably can't remember any database libs well enough to use without documentation. However, lots of programming is much closer to plumming than to.. programming.. any time you're using a lib or api, you're just looking up what kind of fittings that comes with and what length of pipe to attach to it.. So don't worry about not being able to do anything really useful without looking in the docs :) Now, if you have to look up basic language syntax for the language you use every day, I'd say its bad and you probably need to practice a bit ^_^

bch 6y ago
> use without documentation Of course people’s projects can be unique, and my work may not be representative of the readers work, but I guess this raises the question: what does “using Google” mean? I frequently use “lots of things” on my computer: man pages, other installed documentation, will browse source code of libraries I’m using, or indeed my own previous work. I can do this if, say, I have no Internet connection, but that doesn’t mean I’ve got a fully-formed bug-free implementation of my goal floating around in my photographic memory.
- dusted 6y ago
  It's a good point, I take it to mean search for how to use or do something, even as google is becoming worse at finding things, it's still often waaay better than the search functionality available on the websites of many libraries and utilities. So yeah, I guess I take it to also mean searching through local documentation, but I know that's maybe not what was meant.
burlesona 6y ago
Yeah I would say this is exactly right. You should be able to learn at least one language deeply enough that, given sufficient time, you could do just about anything without libraries or external dependencies, and therefore without needing additional documentation. Aspiring to and eventually developing that level of language mastery is, IMO, one of the core signs of maturity for a Software Engineer. However, that would be wildly impractical in our day to day work, which is more about connecting pieces together in the right way, and hence is a lot about reading the manual for those pieces, understanding what it is they do and how they should be assembled together, and then actually assembling them together and testing that it all worked as expected. "Googling things" is an essential step in that process, but you could substitute Google for "read the manual" in an earlier era and it would be the same thing. Perhaps what is sad is how many things these days ship without good manuals, because Google makes it easy enough for people to stitch together scanty release notes, comments in the source code, blog posts, Stack Overflow questions, etc. that you can actually get away with not having a manual.
- pcthrowaway 6y ago
  > You should be able to learn at least one language deeply enough that, given sufficient time, you could do just about anything without libraries or external dependencies, and therefore without needing additional documentation. Aspiring to and eventually developing that level of language mastery is, IMO, one of the core signs of maturity for a Software Engineer. I don't understand why so much emphasis is put on being able to do this without consulting the docs. Sure, it's nice to be able to pound out the most basic valid HTML page without googling it, but that's hardly a web app. If you need a backend component, I suspect the ecosystems where you can make anything practical using only built-in functions (no libs) are in the minority. You'd end up doing ridiculous stuff like using the filesystem as a database, plain javascript on the client side, node's builtin http in the backend. People with years of expertise may be able to do this, but it's just a side effect of having been steeped in the tech stacks for so long. I don't agree that being able to do this is something worth aspiring to. Rather, people should aspire to moving efficiently within their ecosystems and conserving mental space by knowing where to find things quickly.
- dusted 6y ago
  Thanks for rephrasing it so much better! This is really what I meant!

by dusted 6y ago

bch 6y ago

> use without documentation Of course people’s projects can be unique, and my work may not be representative of the readers work, but I guess this raises the question: what does “using Google” mean? I frequently use “lots of things” on my computer: man pages, other installed documentation, will browse source code of libraries I’m using, or indeed my own previous work. I can do this if, say, I have no Internet connection, but that doesn’t mean I’ve got a fully-formed bug-free implementation of my goal floating around in my photographic memory.

dusted 6y ago
It's a good point, I take it to mean search for how to use or do something, even as google is becoming worse at finding things, it's still often waaay better than the search functionality available on the websites of many libraries and utilities. So yeah, I guess I take it to also mean searching through local documentation, but I know that's maybe not what was meant.

burlesona 6y ago

Yeah I would say this is exactly right. You should be able to learn at least one language deeply enough that, given sufficient time, you could do just about anything without libraries or external dependencies, and therefore without needing additional documentation. Aspiring to and eventually developing that level of language mastery is, IMO, one of the core signs of maturity for a Software Engineer. However, that would be wildly impractical in our day to day work, which is more about connecting pieces together in the right way, and hence is a lot about reading the manual for those pieces, understanding what it is they do and how they should be assembled together, and then actually assembling them together and testing that it all worked as expected. "Googling things" is an essential step in that process, but you could substitute Google for "read the manual" in an earlier era and it would be the same thing. Perhaps what is sad is how many things these days ship without good manuals, because Google makes it easy enough for people to stitch together scanty release notes, comments in the source code, blog posts, Stack Overflow questions, etc. that you can actually get away with not having a manual.

pcthrowaway 6y ago
> You should be able to learn at least one language deeply enough that, given sufficient time, you could do just about anything without libraries or external dependencies, and therefore without needing additional documentation. Aspiring to and eventually developing that level of language mastery is, IMO, one of the core signs of maturity for a Software Engineer. I don't understand why so much emphasis is put on being able to do this without consulting the docs. Sure, it's nice to be able to pound out the most basic valid HTML page without googling it, but that's hardly a web app. If you need a backend component, I suspect the ecosystems where you can make anything practical using only built-in functions (no libs) are in the minority. You'd end up doing ridiculous stuff like using the filesystem as a database, plain javascript on the client side, node's builtin http in the backend. People with years of expertise may be able to do this, but it's just a side effect of having been steeped in the tech stacks for so long. I don't agree that being able to do this is something worth aspiring to. Rather, people should aspire to moving efficiently within their ecosystems and conserving mental space by knowing where to find things quickly.
dusted 6y ago
Thanks for rephrasing it so much better! This is really what I meant!