4 ms·

> The problem with never talk to the police is that they can mess with you more or less impunity. Yes! They can and will mess with you. But if you think talkin

> The problem with never talk to the police is that they can mess with you more or less impunity. Yes! They can and will mess with you. But if you think talking to them will _reduce the chances_ of them messing you, many legal experts would disagree. Talking to them gives them additional avenues by with they might claim that you committed the crime, you're guilty, and they get to `solved_crimes_this_month += 1`. It's all risk mitigation. They might treat you illegally and immorally, for sure. They're not _less_ likely to do this if you consent to "a conversation", they're _more_ likely to do this. So, again, don't talk to police without a lawyer present. When you're lawyer gets on scene, he'll say "don't talk to them", so you'll continue to _not talk to them._ Many folks on HN that live in the USA, are statistically likely to not have particularly bad interactions with the police, but that means we have a chance (or even obligation) to normalize self-protective behaviors that persons who are not quite as (white|male|upper class| privileged) as we are might suffer repercussions for exercising. I.E. if it spreads that "privileged people don't talk to police" then "marginalized people not talking to police" are less likely to suffer abuse from said police.

syops 6y ago
I should state that I had in mind police interactions similar to traffic stops. Boldly proclaiming you don't consent to a search or you refuse to answer questions can lead to a tough time for you. I think in general one should strive for de-escalation, and being overly compliant in the above type interaction. Once you are arrested then definitely assert your rights. It's unfortunate that police powers are such that we can't assert out rights without fear of retribution. I strongly disagree with your last sentence. I believe cops will take advantage of those who can't afford lawyers as long as there are no real consequences to them.
- wonder_er 6y ago
  Oh, yeah, even with traffic stops, you're totally right. Don't "boldly proclaim" anything. Be humble, even as you keep this in mind. I've been asked at traffic stops at least 3x, by police: > You don't have any drugs in here, right? Don't mind if I take a look? What do you say? > Nope, no drugs! Great, you've consented to a search. > No, officer, I don't consent to a search of my vehicle. They might still search, but now their search is without probable cause _and_ your consent, which means even if they _do_ find drugs in your car, your lawyer will be able to spring you easily. Cops do take advantage of those who cannot afford lawyers, but a way you can set yourself up for success is guide the interaction in such a way that a lawyer would have no problem proving the cops violated their own guidelines.
  - stretchcat 6y ago
    A calm tone won't necessarily make the cop calm, but a bold/agressive tone will almost certainly make the cop respond in kind. When I decline a request from a cop, I make sure to do it with a sugared tongue. The cop isn't entitled to the 'sorry' in "No, sorry", but that little indignity might make the difference so I'm willing to suffer it.
    - hansvm 6y ago
      I don't know if it's a good idea in general, but I've gotten good results from even more flowery language -- "I'm sure we'd be great friends in other circumstances, but while you're on duty I need a lawyer present for any further discussions." Anecdotally, not taking the effort to reaffirm that it's nothing against them personally tends to lead to a lot of pushback.
      - stretchcat 6y ago
        I've never tried going that far, but once a cop looked offended when I said he couldn't search my car, like I had impugned his honor, so I volunteered the explaination 'It's nothing personal, just a matter of principle." That seemed to satisfy him.
  - dwallin 6y ago
    They will just detain you and bring in a dog, who will "find" probable cause.
    - valuearb 6y ago
      Sometimes there isn’t a dog available. Sometimes the police have to leave on a higher priority call. Sometimes the dog doesn’t alert. Sometimes your lawyer can get the dog alerting thrown out based on other factors. What’s the risk of just letting them search? Sometimes you can be held for 90 days because the cops mistake donut frosting for meth. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/10/16/558147669/florida-man-awarded-37-500-after-cops-mistake-glazed-doughnut-crumbs-for-meth https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/10/16/558147669...
soulofmischief 6y ago
Sometimes I've resolved the situation by not saying a word. Sometimes I've resolved the situation by saying many words, very angrily.
gknoy 6y ago
"""When you're lawyer gets on scene""" How does one actually _get_ a lawyer on the scene? If I haven't been arrested, am I eligible for a public defender? Do I need to already have one on retainer? I recognize the value of having one, but if a police officer came to my door right now, I don't know what to do if I don't already have a lawyer.
- lr4444lr 6y ago
  If you aren't arrested, then you aren't charged, and so no, you have no right to an attorney. Police can detain you on site for a little while in order to make the arrest/no arrest decision. At any time you can give police an ultimatum: am I free to go? If the answer is yes, you're done - say nothing more. If the answer is no, you can keep pestering them with questions until you get clarity on how you can or if you can get out of there, but that isn't the same as answering their questions.
- ygjb 6y ago
  This is extremely specific to jurisdiction; I would hope that anyone who responds with advice here will clearly state which jurisdiction they are referring to.
  - mistersquid 6y ago
    > This is extremely specific to jurisdiction; In the US, a person’s rights are NOT specific with regard to jurisdiction. One’s rights are enshrined in what are colloquially referred to as Miranda Rights (issued as a Miranda Warning upon arrest) and they protect all people detained by the police in the US. [0] > You have the right to remain silent and refuse to answer questions. > Anything you say may be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to consult an attorney before speaking to the police and to have an attorney present during questioning now or in the future. > If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you before any questioning if you wish. > If you decide to answer questions now without an attorney present, you will still have the right to stop answering at any time until you talk to an attorney. > Knowing and understanding your rights as I have explained them to you, are you willing to answer my questions without an attorney present? [1] [0] http://www.mirandawarning.org/whatareyourmirandarights.html http://www.mirandawarning.org/whatareyourmirandarights.html [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_warning https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_warning

syops 6y ago

I should state that I had in mind police interactions similar to traffic stops. Boldly proclaiming you don't consent to a search or you refuse to answer questions can lead to a tough time for you. I think in general one should strive for de-escalation, and being overly compliant in the above type interaction. Once you are arrested then definitely assert your rights. It's unfortunate that police powers are such that we can't assert out rights without fear of retribution. I strongly disagree with your last sentence. I believe cops will take advantage of those who can't afford lawyers as long as there are no real consequences to them.

wonder_er 6y ago
Oh, yeah, even with traffic stops, you're totally right. Don't "boldly proclaim" anything. Be humble, even as you keep this in mind. I've been asked at traffic stops at least 3x, by police: > You don't have any drugs in here, right? Don't mind if I take a look? What do you say? > Nope, no drugs! Great, you've consented to a search. > No, officer, I don't consent to a search of my vehicle. They might still search, but now their search is without probable cause _and_ your consent, which means even if they _do_ find drugs in your car, your lawyer will be able to spring you easily. Cops do take advantage of those who cannot afford lawyers, but a way you can set yourself up for success is guide the interaction in such a way that a lawyer would have no problem proving the cops violated their own guidelines.
- stretchcat 6y ago
  A calm tone won't necessarily make the cop calm, but a bold/agressive tone will almost certainly make the cop respond in kind. When I decline a request from a cop, I make sure to do it with a sugared tongue. The cop isn't entitled to the 'sorry' in "No, sorry", but that little indignity might make the difference so I'm willing to suffer it.
  - hansvm 6y ago
    I don't know if it's a good idea in general, but I've gotten good results from even more flowery language -- "I'm sure we'd be great friends in other circumstances, but while you're on duty I need a lawyer present for any further discussions." Anecdotally, not taking the effort to reaffirm that it's nothing against them personally tends to lead to a lot of pushback.
    - stretchcat 6y ago
      I've never tried going that far, but once a cop looked offended when I said he couldn't search my car, like I had impugned his honor, so I volunteered the explaination 'It's nothing personal, just a matter of principle." That seemed to satisfy him.
- dwallin 6y ago
  They will just detain you and bring in a dog, who will "find" probable cause.
  - valuearb 6y ago
    Sometimes there isn’t a dog available. Sometimes the police have to leave on a higher priority call. Sometimes the dog doesn’t alert. Sometimes your lawyer can get the dog alerting thrown out based on other factors. What’s the risk of just letting them search? Sometimes you can be held for 90 days because the cops mistake donut frosting for meth. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/10/16/558147669/florida-man-awarded-37-500-after-cops-mistake-glazed-doughnut-crumbs-for-meth https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/10/16/558147669...

soulofmischief 6y ago

Sometimes I've resolved the situation by not saying a word. Sometimes I've resolved the situation by saying many words, very angrily.

gknoy 6y ago

"""When you're lawyer gets on scene""" How does one actually _get_ a lawyer on the scene? If I haven't been arrested, am I eligible for a public defender? Do I need to already have one on retainer? I recognize the value of having one, but if a police officer came to my door right now, I don't know what to do if I don't already have a lawyer.

lr4444lr 6y ago
If you aren't arrested, then you aren't charged, and so no, you have no right to an attorney. Police can detain you on site for a little while in order to make the arrest/no arrest decision. At any time you can give police an ultimatum: am I free to go? If the answer is yes, you're done - say nothing more. If the answer is no, you can keep pestering them with questions until you get clarity on how you can or if you can get out of there, but that isn't the same as answering their questions.
ygjb 6y ago
This is extremely specific to jurisdiction; I would hope that anyone who responds with advice here will clearly state which jurisdiction they are referring to.
- mistersquid 6y ago
  > This is extremely specific to jurisdiction; In the US, a person’s rights are NOT specific with regard to jurisdiction. One’s rights are enshrined in what are colloquially referred to as Miranda Rights (issued as a Miranda Warning upon arrest) and they protect all people detained by the police in the US. [0] > You have the right to remain silent and refuse to answer questions. > Anything you say may be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to consult an attorney before speaking to the police and to have an attorney present during questioning now or in the future. > If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you before any questioning if you wish. > If you decide to answer questions now without an attorney present, you will still have the right to stop answering at any time until you talk to an attorney. > Knowing and understanding your rights as I have explained them to you, are you willing to answer my questions without an attorney present? [1] [0] http://www.mirandawarning.org/whatareyourmirandarights.html http://www.mirandawarning.org/whatareyourmirandarights.html [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_warning https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_warning