6 ms·

The problem with never talk to the police is that they can mess with you more or less with impunity. They can beat you and not worry about retribution from the

by syops 6y ago

The problem with never talk to the police is that they can mess with you more or less with impunity. They can beat you and not worry about retribution from the judicial system. They can arrest you in which the only charge is resisting arrest. Even if you are treated humanely when you refuse to talk to the police there is the very real possibility they will investigate your life. Given that there are civil liberties lawyers who claim that everyone commits felonies on a regular basis does one really want a big investigation into their life [1]? The power of the state to mess up your life is such that this advice might not be applicable if the cop you are dealing with is a jerk. [1] http://ulrichboser.com/how-many-felonies-did-you-commit-today-an-interview-with-harvey-silverglate/ http://ulrichboser.com/how-many-felonies-did-you-commit-toda...

fire7000 6y ago
So be respectful when talking to people who can mess your life up
wonder_er 6y ago
> The problem with never talk to the police is that they can mess with you more or less impunity. Yes! They can and will mess with you. But if you think talking to them will _reduce the chances_ of them messing you, many legal experts would disagree. Talking to them gives them additional avenues by with they might claim that you committed the crime, you're guilty, and they get to `solved_crimes_this_month += 1`. It's all risk mitigation. They might treat you illegally and immorally, for sure. They're not _less_ likely to do this if you consent to "a conversation", they're _more_ likely to do this. So, again, don't talk to police without a lawyer present. When you're lawyer gets on scene, he'll say "don't talk to them", so you'll continue to _not talk to them._ Many folks on HN that live in the USA, are statistically likely to not have particularly bad interactions with the police, but that means we have a chance (or even obligation) to normalize self-protective behaviors that persons who are not quite as (white|male|upper class| privileged) as we are might suffer repercussions for exercising. I.E. if it spreads that "privileged people don't talk to police" then "marginalized people not talking to police" are less likely to suffer abuse from said police.
- syops 6y ago
  I should state that I had in mind police interactions similar to traffic stops. Boldly proclaiming you don't consent to a search or you refuse to answer questions can lead to a tough time for you. I think in general one should strive for de-escalation, and being overly compliant in the above type interaction. Once you are arrested then definitely assert your rights. It's unfortunate that police powers are such that we can't assert out rights without fear of retribution. I strongly disagree with your last sentence. I believe cops will take advantage of those who can't afford lawyers as long as there are no real consequences to them.
  - wonder_er 6y ago
    Oh, yeah, even with traffic stops, you're totally right. Don't "boldly proclaim" anything. Be humble, even as you keep this in mind. I've been asked at traffic stops at least 3x, by police: > You don't have any drugs in here, right? Don't mind if I take a look? What do you say? > Nope, no drugs! Great, you've consented to a search. > No, officer, I don't consent to a search of my vehicle. They might still search, but now their search is without probable cause _and_ your consent, which means even if they _do_ find drugs in your car, your lawyer will be able to spring you easily. Cops do take advantage of those who cannot afford lawyers, but a way you can set yourself up for success is guide the interaction in such a way that a lawyer would have no problem proving the cops violated their own guidelines.
    - stretchcat 6y ago
      A calm tone won't necessarily make the cop calm, but a bold/agressive tone will almost certainly make the cop respond in kind. When I decline a request from a cop, I make sure to do it with a sugared tongue. The cop isn't entitled to the 'sorry' in "No, sorry", but that little indignity might make the difference so I'm willing to suffer it.
      - hansvm 6y ago
        I don't know if it's a good idea in general, but I've gotten good results from even more flowery language -- "I'm sure we'd be great friends in other circumstances, but while you're on duty I need a lawyer present for any further discussions." Anecdotally, not taking the effort to reaffirm that it's nothing against them personally tends to lead to a lot of pushback.
pstuart 6y ago
> they can mess with you more or less with impunity a.k.a you may beat the rap but you can't beat the ride
DavidAdams 6y ago
You're right about this. In more adversarial cases it's probably best to tell the police that you will talk to them, but only in a formal interview with your lawyer present (even if this isn't true, and you don't want to talk to them, and you don't have a lawyer and don't intend to get one). Telling them this, though, doesn't give them as much license to get nasty.
Spooky23 6y ago
Most of the "felony a day" things are really critiques of overbroad laws, especially at the federal level. "Honest Services" laws were a big part of that narrative when federal prosecutors were using it in public integrity cases. It's mostly myth. The issue with unnecessarily interacting with police is that you never know what is actually happening. It's like dealing with a salesmen, they are trained do control situations and question people every day. In many circumstances you have nothing to add, nothing to gain, and you incur risk that something you say or do makes an unfortunate connection. Nobody is going to beat or arrest you for saying "no thanks".
deepspace 6y ago
I keep seeing the "everyone commits multiple felonies a day" quote, but all the examples quoted are of people destroying evidence, dealing in protected goods and so on. Are there any actual good examples of ordinary law-abiding citizens going about their mundane daily lives while also inadvertently committing multiple felonies?
- syops 6y ago
  I have no idea and I suspect the answer is that most people don't actually commit several felonies per day. However, the point is that there are lots of laws that I'm not aware of and I may have inadvertently broken one of them. I'm certain if a government agency really wanted to put me in jail they could for quite a long time even if they don't get a conviction. It's sad that this is the state of affairs that exist in the U.S.

by syops 6y ago

fire7000 6y ago

So be respectful when talking to people who can mess your life up

wonder_er 6y ago

> The problem with never talk to the police is that they can mess with you more or less impunity. Yes! They can and will mess with you. But if you think talking to them will _reduce the chances_ of them messing you, many legal experts would disagree. Talking to them gives them additional avenues by with they might claim that you committed the crime, you're guilty, and they get to `solved_crimes_this_month += 1`. It's all risk mitigation. They might treat you illegally and immorally, for sure. They're not _less_ likely to do this if you consent to "a conversation", they're _more_ likely to do this. So, again, don't talk to police without a lawyer present. When you're lawyer gets on scene, he'll say "don't talk to them", so you'll continue to _not talk to them._ Many folks on HN that live in the USA, are statistically likely to not have particularly bad interactions with the police, but that means we have a chance (or even obligation) to normalize self-protective behaviors that persons who are not quite as (white|male|upper class| privileged) as we are might suffer repercussions for exercising. I.E. if it spreads that "privileged people don't talk to police" then "marginalized people not talking to police" are less likely to suffer abuse from said police.

syops 6y ago
I should state that I had in mind police interactions similar to traffic stops. Boldly proclaiming you don't consent to a search or you refuse to answer questions can lead to a tough time for you. I think in general one should strive for de-escalation, and being overly compliant in the above type interaction. Once you are arrested then definitely assert your rights. It's unfortunate that police powers are such that we can't assert out rights without fear of retribution. I strongly disagree with your last sentence. I believe cops will take advantage of those who can't afford lawyers as long as there are no real consequences to them.
- wonder_er 6y ago
  Oh, yeah, even with traffic stops, you're totally right. Don't "boldly proclaim" anything. Be humble, even as you keep this in mind. I've been asked at traffic stops at least 3x, by police: > You don't have any drugs in here, right? Don't mind if I take a look? What do you say? > Nope, no drugs! Great, you've consented to a search. > No, officer, I don't consent to a search of my vehicle. They might still search, but now their search is without probable cause _and_ your consent, which means even if they _do_ find drugs in your car, your lawyer will be able to spring you easily. Cops do take advantage of those who cannot afford lawyers, but a way you can set yourself up for success is guide the interaction in such a way that a lawyer would have no problem proving the cops violated their own guidelines.
  - stretchcat 6y ago
    A calm tone won't necessarily make the cop calm, but a bold/agressive tone will almost certainly make the cop respond in kind. When I decline a request from a cop, I make sure to do it with a sugared tongue. The cop isn't entitled to the 'sorry' in "No, sorry", but that little indignity might make the difference so I'm willing to suffer it.
    - hansvm 6y ago
      I don't know if it's a good idea in general, but I've gotten good results from even more flowery language -- "I'm sure we'd be great friends in other circumstances, but while you're on duty I need a lawyer present for any further discussions." Anecdotally, not taking the effort to reaffirm that it's nothing against them personally tends to lead to a lot of pushback.

pstuart 6y ago

> they can mess with you more or less with impunity a.k.a you may beat the rap but you can't beat the ride

DavidAdams 6y ago

You're right about this. In more adversarial cases it's probably best to tell the police that you will talk to them, but only in a formal interview with your lawyer present (even if this isn't true, and you don't want to talk to them, and you don't have a lawyer and don't intend to get one). Telling them this, though, doesn't give them as much license to get nasty.

Spooky23 6y ago

Most of the "felony a day" things are really critiques of overbroad laws, especially at the federal level. "Honest Services" laws were a big part of that narrative when federal prosecutors were using it in public integrity cases. It's mostly myth. The issue with unnecessarily interacting with police is that you never know what is actually happening. It's like dealing with a salesmen, they are trained do control situations and question people every day. In many circumstances you have nothing to add, nothing to gain, and you incur risk that something you say or do makes an unfortunate connection. Nobody is going to beat or arrest you for saying "no thanks".

deepspace 6y ago

I keep seeing the "everyone commits multiple felonies a day" quote, but all the examples quoted are of people destroying evidence, dealing in protected goods and so on. Are there any actual good examples of ordinary law-abiding citizens going about their mundane daily lives while also inadvertently committing multiple felonies?

syops 6y ago
I have no idea and I suspect the answer is that most people don't actually commit several felonies per day. However, the point is that there are lots of laws that I'm not aware of and I may have inadvertently broken one of them. I'm certain if a government agency really wanted to put me in jail they could for quite a long time even if they don't get a conviction. It's sad that this is the state of affairs that exist in the U.S.