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> belies an expectation for police to act contrary to human nature But it's illegal in multiple situations for me to lie to them. Is that an expectation for me

> belies an expectation for police to act contrary to human nature But it's illegal in multiple situations for me to lie to them. Is that an expectation for me to act contrary to human behavior? I think that what people are asking is just that the standards be applied in both directions. > Do. Not. Talk. To. Police. Agreed on that point, and yes, I have watched some (but not all) of James Duane's stuff.

wonder_er 6y ago
It is indeed illegal for you to lie to them, and many things you might construe as "not a lie" they could construe as "a lie", so yes, you get jail time for something they're doing in the course of their job. The standards _don't_ apply in both directions. Any interaction with the police is inherently imbalanced. They get to stand wherever they want (often in groups), in body armor, with guns and handcuffs and the permission to arrest you (or shoot you!) at any point in time, if you say/do the right mix of things. If you've _never told them anything_ or _agreed to sit in a room with them_, you're much less likely to be prosecuted for lying to them. > Officer, I do not talk to police. If they arrest you: > Officer, I do not talk to police. etc. You might spend a night or a month in jail, but it's better than 5 years for a murder you didn't commit, but the officer was pushing hard to get one more conviction before closing out FY2021
- saurik 6y ago
  While practical advice for the current state of affairs, it is irrelevant here as the whole point here is that we don't like the current state of affairs: they shouldn't get to lie to people from their position of authority and asymmetric requirements, and if it can be proven that they lied to the suspect it should be something a lawyer can use to invalidate testimony (which might be brutal for the ability to convict the person, leading to police being trained to not do it, etc.).
  - Spooky23 6y ago
    There's a spectrum of dishonesty and different ethical considerations. "Don't lie" sounds like a no-brainer, but there is alot of complexity baked in. Is the issue the use of deception to investigate crime or making specific types of dishonest statements?
    - saurik 6y ago
      FWIW, my direct and immediate issues are when the system lies to people about the way the system works. The power imbalance is already ridiculously high when someone has you in custody--momentarily, temporarily, or permanently--that it seems entirely unconscionable to me that the system then further gets to lie to you about your status or what will happen to you next.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
GuB-42 6y ago
Whether or not you can lie to the police depends on your jurisdiction. In most countries, there are laws against self-incrimination. If you have the "right to remain silent", like in the US, it may be illegal to lie to them. If you don't have that right, then you have the right to lie, because otherwise, you could be incriminating yourself. IANAL, but it is a complex topic.
- valuearb 6y ago
  In the US it’s illegal to lie to a federal officer. The Martha Stewart offense.
phkahler 6y ago
>> But it's illegal in multiple situations for me to lie to them. Is that an expectation for me to act contrary to human behavior? I have been having serious issues around this notion that everyone lies 500 times a day - that it normal and super common. I think I'm aware when I lie, and it usually amounts to something more like not sharing my full opinion so not to hurt feelings. But even that isn't common. Do most people really just make up bullshit all day long?
- danShumway 6y ago
  I don't take a position on that, but if it's not common, then why are we treating it like a big deal to require police officers to tell the truth to us? My premise isn't that lying is either essentially human or completely wrong -- my premise is that police officers are humans like the rest of us and should be able to handle at least the same restrictions as everybody else. If I'm expected to know the entire law, they shouldn't be able to hide behind ignorance as an excuse either. If I'm expected to tell the truth, they should tell the truth as well. If I'm expected to deescalate tense situations, they should have the same expectations. A cop should be at least as well trained and conscientious as a civilian (and hopefully more trained since this stuff is actually their job).

wonder_er 6y ago

It is indeed illegal for you to lie to them, and many things you might construe as "not a lie" they could construe as "a lie", so yes, you get jail time for something they're doing in the course of their job. The standards _don't_ apply in both directions. Any interaction with the police is inherently imbalanced. They get to stand wherever they want (often in groups), in body armor, with guns and handcuffs and the permission to arrest you (or shoot you!) at any point in time, if you say/do the right mix of things. If you've _never told them anything_ or _agreed to sit in a room with them_, you're much less likely to be prosecuted for lying to them. > Officer, I do not talk to police. If they arrest you: > Officer, I do not talk to police. etc. You might spend a night or a month in jail, but it's better than 5 years for a murder you didn't commit, but the officer was pushing hard to get one more conviction before closing out FY2021

saurik 6y ago
While practical advice for the current state of affairs, it is irrelevant here as the whole point here is that we don't like the current state of affairs: they shouldn't get to lie to people from their position of authority and asymmetric requirements, and if it can be proven that they lied to the suspect it should be something a lawyer can use to invalidate testimony (which might be brutal for the ability to convict the person, leading to police being trained to not do it, etc.).
- Spooky23 6y ago
  There's a spectrum of dishonesty and different ethical considerations. "Don't lie" sounds like a no-brainer, but there is alot of complexity baked in. Is the issue the use of deception to investigate crime or making specific types of dishonest statements?
  - saurik 6y ago
    FWIW, my direct and immediate issues are when the system lies to people about the way the system works. The power imbalance is already ridiculously high when someone has you in custody--momentarily, temporarily, or permanently--that it seems entirely unconscionable to me that the system then further gets to lie to you about your status or what will happen to you next.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

GuB-42 6y ago

Whether or not you can lie to the police depends on your jurisdiction. In most countries, there are laws against self-incrimination. If you have the "right to remain silent", like in the US, it may be illegal to lie to them. If you don't have that right, then you have the right to lie, because otherwise, you could be incriminating yourself. IANAL, but it is a complex topic.

valuearb 6y ago
In the US it’s illegal to lie to a federal officer. The Martha Stewart offense.

phkahler 6y ago

>> But it's illegal in multiple situations for me to lie to them. Is that an expectation for me to act contrary to human behavior? I have been having serious issues around this notion that everyone lies 500 times a day - that it normal and super common. I think I'm aware when I lie, and it usually amounts to something more like not sharing my full opinion so not to hurt feelings. But even that isn't common. Do most people really just make up bullshit all day long?

danShumway 6y ago
I don't take a position on that, but if it's not common, then why are we treating it like a big deal to require police officers to tell the truth to us? My premise isn't that lying is either essentially human or completely wrong -- my premise is that police officers are humans like the rest of us and should be able to handle at least the same restrictions as everybody else. If I'm expected to know the entire law, they shouldn't be able to hide behind ignorance as an excuse either. If I'm expected to tell the truth, they should tell the truth as well. If I'm expected to deescalate tense situations, they should have the same expectations. A cop should be at least as well trained and conscientious as a civilian (and hopefully more trained since this stuff is actually their job).