7 ms·

Asking police to stop lying to suspects belies an expectation for police to act contrary to human nature for _many well known reasons_. It's less of a problem

Asking police to stop lying to suspects belies an expectation for police to act contrary to human nature for _many well known reasons_. It's less of a problem that police lie if everyone adopts the very clear advice given by every legal professional: > Never, ever, talk to police.* * You can give them your name, and if they ask "what are you doing", a tolerable answer, but any further questions are to be met with "I have been advised to never speak with police, and I can answer no further questions." Here's an entertaining lecture on the topic, for anyone not convinced: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE&t=11s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE&t=11s And he wrote a very short (single-sitting) book titled: "You Have The Right To Remain Innocent": https://www.amazon.com/You-Have-Right-Remain-Innocent-ebook/dp/B01DAD218W/ref=sr_1_1 https://www.amazon.com/You-Have-Right-Remain-Innocent-ebook/... Do. Not. Talk. To. Police. They are not your friend. If you're reading this and about to hit the "reply" button explaining why I am wrong, will you please, please say in that comment if you watched _any_ of the lecture by Regent Law Professor James Duane?

billforsternz 6y ago
I haven't watched _any_ of the lecture but I don't need to know this blanket Do. Not. Talk. To. The. Police. advice is absurd. For example: What if I need to report a crime?
- bambax 6y ago
  > I haven't watched _any_ of the lecture Then do.
- tclancy 6y ago
  If you have this much trouble with context, I would highly suggest hiring an attorney before commenting on the Internet.
  - billforsternz 6y ago
    One time a neighbor knocked on my door. She was concerned. "Can you hear those children screaming?" Stepping outside with her I found I could, just, maybe a few hundred metres away. "We better call the cops" I said. The cops arrived within minutes. It turned out that the local school had invited a farmer to bring some lambs to the school and we could hear the kids squealing in delight. The cops, my neighbor and I had a good laugh about it. This is one of many times I've talked to cops in my life and I've invariably had pleasant and good natured conversations. Perhaps I should mention I don't live in the USA.
    - williamdclt 6y ago
      > Perhaps I should mention I don't live in the USA As a non-US resident: indeed you're having a much different conversation than everybody here. This advice also makes some sense in other countries, but this article (NY times), the advice ("don't talk to police"), the lecture, the context (eg Miranda) are all pretty US-specific. In my country the defendant is legally allowed to lie and the police is not!
      - syops 6y ago
        What country is this?
        username90 6y ago
        Sweden for example. Not sure why you'd have a lower bar for the police than for civilians. Police are professionals and should act like it. Arrested civilians are in a stressful situation and should be given leniency. Or do you really think the current situation in USA where the best advice is "Don't talk to the police ever!" really helps with solving crimes? If people instead trusted that police aren't allowed to lie, and that what they say can't be used against them even if it doesn't add up, they would be much more cooperative with the police and hence help solve crime better.
        syops 6y ago
        I was just asking for an example. Sweden is one. Now I know.
        username90 6y ago
        Sorry, I thought you were on the "How would police do their job without lying crowd" and assumed such police forces didn't exist. Anyway most of Europe works that way. Not sure why the culture of the police in US is so different.
- mnd999 6y ago
  If you need to report a crime, do so. Get your crime report and claim on your insurance and move on.
danShumway 6y ago
> belies an expectation for police to act contrary to human nature But it's illegal in multiple situations for me to lie to them. Is that an expectation for me to act contrary to human behavior? I think that what people are asking is just that the standards be applied in both directions. > Do. Not. Talk. To. Police. Agreed on that point, and yes, I have watched some (but not all) of James Duane's stuff.
- wonder_er 6y ago
  It is indeed illegal for you to lie to them, and many things you might construe as "not a lie" they could construe as "a lie", so yes, you get jail time for something they're doing in the course of their job. The standards _don't_ apply in both directions. Any interaction with the police is inherently imbalanced. They get to stand wherever they want (often in groups), in body armor, with guns and handcuffs and the permission to arrest you (or shoot you!) at any point in time, if you say/do the right mix of things. If you've _never told them anything_ or _agreed to sit in a room with them_, you're much less likely to be prosecuted for lying to them. > Officer, I do not talk to police. If they arrest you: > Officer, I do not talk to police. etc. You might spend a night or a month in jail, but it's better than 5 years for a murder you didn't commit, but the officer was pushing hard to get one more conviction before closing out FY2021
  - saurik 6y ago
    While practical advice for the current state of affairs, it is irrelevant here as the whole point here is that we don't like the current state of affairs: they shouldn't get to lie to people from their position of authority and asymmetric requirements, and if it can be proven that they lied to the suspect it should be something a lawyer can use to invalidate testimony (which might be brutal for the ability to convict the person, leading to police being trained to not do it, etc.).
    - Spooky23 6y ago
      There's a spectrum of dishonesty and different ethical considerations. "Don't lie" sounds like a no-brainer, but there is alot of complexity baked in. Is the issue the use of deception to investigate crime or making specific types of dishonest statements?
syops 6y ago
The problem with never talk to the police is that they can mess with you more or less with impunity. They can beat you and not worry about retribution from the judicial system. They can arrest you in which the only charge is resisting arrest. Even if you are treated humanely when you refuse to talk to the police there is the very real possibility they will investigate your life. Given that there are civil liberties lawyers who claim that everyone commits felonies on a regular basis does one really want a big investigation into their life [1]? The power of the state to mess up your life is such that this advice might not be applicable if the cop you are dealing with is a jerk. [1] http://ulrichboser.com/how-many-felonies-did-you-commit-today-an-interview-with-harvey-silverglate/ http://ulrichboser.com/how-many-felonies-did-you-commit-toda...
- fire7000 6y ago
  So be respectful when talking to people who can mess your life up
- wonder_er 6y ago
  > The problem with never talk to the police is that they can mess with you more or less impunity. Yes! They can and will mess with you. But if you think talking to them will _reduce the chances_ of them messing you, many legal experts would disagree. Talking to them gives them additional avenues by with they might claim that you committed the crime, you're guilty, and they get to `solved_crimes_this_month += 1`. It's all risk mitigation. They might treat you illegally and immorally, for sure. They're not _less_ likely to do this if you consent to "a conversation", they're _more_ likely to do this. So, again, don't talk to police without a lawyer present. When you're lawyer gets on scene, he'll say "don't talk to them", so you'll continue to _not talk to them._ Many folks on HN that live in the USA, are statistically likely to not have particularly bad interactions with the police, but that means we have a chance (or even obligation) to normalize self-protective behaviors that persons who are not quite as (white|male|upper class| privileged) as we are might suffer repercussions for exercising. I.E. if it spreads that "privileged people don't talk to police" then "marginalized people not talking to police" are less likely to suffer abuse from said police.
  - 6y ago
dredmorbius 6y ago
Legal sanction against law enforcement officer misrepresentation is a more attainable control point than 100% awareness and compliance with "don't talk to police". The latter advice is valid, and I agree with it. The change in law, with both sanctions (against officers and departments transacting such conduct) and exclusions on all evidence and testimony resulting, would be vastly more effective.
- wonder_er 6y ago
  Why let the perfect be the enemy of the good? > Legal sanction against law enforcement officer misrepresentation is a more attainable control point than 100% awareness and compliance with "don't talk to police". The latter advice is valid, and I agree with it. The change in law, with both sanctions (against officers and departments transacting such conduct) and exclusions on all evidence and testimony resulting, would be vastly more effective. I don't think the legal sanctions would actually _do_ anything, because legal sanctions _never_ do anything. Cops still commit crimes, however you define "commit crimes", _every day_ with zero penalty. So, any argument that says "we should ask police to stop lying, and if they lie, we'll write them up!" sounds like a non-starter. On the flip side, we don't need 100% awareness of "don't talk to police", we just need awareness to trickle into the percentage of society that has encounters with police every year. Supposedly, there's 700k police officers in the USA right now.[0] Each of those probably interacts with at least 5 people a day, but there's very much a 80:20 principle in _multiple_ contacts with police in a year. So, I'd settle with 200mm people in the USA knowing this principle. That's a measly 2/3rds of the US population. A good and entertaining music video that highlighted this fact would get us half-way there in one fell swoop. [0]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/191694/number-of-law-enforcement-officers-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/191694/number-of-law-enf...
  - DennisP 6y ago
    The proposed remedy isn't to punish the lying cops, but to make the confessions obtained that way inadmissible.
    - 6y ago
jedmeyers 6y ago
> "and I can answer no further questions." Of course you CAN answer further questions since you can speak. Thus you have just lied to a law enforcement officer.
- wonder_er 6y ago
  Ha! Proved my point exactly. James Duane has specific recommended phrases. Maybe the use of: "and I will answer no further questions" would keep me out of jail!
TheRealDunkirk 6y ago
> Do. Not. Talk. To. Police. They are not your friend. My wife watches a lot of those crime drama shows, and the defendants who simply refuse to participate in the charade of the interrogation room harassment are the ones that walk. There's a lot of awareness now about the dramatically-increased "interaction" between police and African Americans. What I can't understand is why -- given the decades of "heightened relations" between them -- this mantra hasn't become ingrained in the collective consciousness.
username90 6y ago
> Asking police to stop lying to suspects belies an expectation for police to act contrary to human nature for _many well known reasons_. Not sure why you'd think that, the police isn't allowed to lie or deceive the suspect in Sweden like they are in USA. Sweden, lying in interrogations is not allowed: https://advokaternas.se/2020/06/07/far-polisen-ljuga-i-forhor/ https://advokaternas.se/2020/06/07/far-polisen-ljuga-i-forho... USA, lying in interrogations is allowed: https://www.apa.org/monitor/2014/05/jn https://www.apa.org/monitor/2014/05/jn

billforsternz 6y ago

I haven't watched _any_ of the lecture but I don't need to know this blanket Do. Not. Talk. To. The. Police. advice is absurd. For example: What if I need to report a crime?

bambax 6y ago
> I haven't watched _any_ of the lecture Then do.
tclancy 6y ago
If you have this much trouble with context, I would highly suggest hiring an attorney before commenting on the Internet.
- billforsternz 6y ago
  One time a neighbor knocked on my door. She was concerned. "Can you hear those children screaming?" Stepping outside with her I found I could, just, maybe a few hundred metres away. "We better call the cops" I said. The cops arrived within minutes. It turned out that the local school had invited a farmer to bring some lambs to the school and we could hear the kids squealing in delight. The cops, my neighbor and I had a good laugh about it. This is one of many times I've talked to cops in my life and I've invariably had pleasant and good natured conversations. Perhaps I should mention I don't live in the USA.
  - williamdclt 6y ago
    > Perhaps I should mention I don't live in the USA As a non-US resident: indeed you're having a much different conversation than everybody here. This advice also makes some sense in other countries, but this article (NY times), the advice ("don't talk to police"), the lecture, the context (eg Miranda) are all pretty US-specific. In my country the defendant is legally allowed to lie and the police is not!
    - syops 6y ago
      What country is this?
      - username90 6y ago
        Sweden for example. Not sure why you'd have a lower bar for the police than for civilians. Police are professionals and should act like it. Arrested civilians are in a stressful situation and should be given leniency. Or do you really think the current situation in USA where the best advice is "Don't talk to the police ever!" really helps with solving crimes? If people instead trusted that police aren't allowed to lie, and that what they say can't be used against them even if it doesn't add up, they would be much more cooperative with the police and hence help solve crime better.
        syops 6y ago
        I was just asking for an example. Sweden is one. Now I know.
        username90 6y ago
        Sorry, I thought you were on the "How would police do their job without lying crowd" and assumed such police forces didn't exist. Anyway most of Europe works that way. Not sure why the culture of the police in US is so different.
mnd999 6y ago
If you need to report a crime, do so. Get your crime report and claim on your insurance and move on.

danShumway 6y ago

> belies an expectation for police to act contrary to human nature But it's illegal in multiple situations for me to lie to them. Is that an expectation for me to act contrary to human behavior? I think that what people are asking is just that the standards be applied in both directions. > Do. Not. Talk. To. Police. Agreed on that point, and yes, I have watched some (but not all) of James Duane's stuff.

wonder_er 6y ago
It is indeed illegal for you to lie to them, and many things you might construe as "not a lie" they could construe as "a lie", so yes, you get jail time for something they're doing in the course of their job. The standards _don't_ apply in both directions. Any interaction with the police is inherently imbalanced. They get to stand wherever they want (often in groups), in body armor, with guns and handcuffs and the permission to arrest you (or shoot you!) at any point in time, if you say/do the right mix of things. If you've _never told them anything_ or _agreed to sit in a room with them_, you're much less likely to be prosecuted for lying to them. > Officer, I do not talk to police. If they arrest you: > Officer, I do not talk to police. etc. You might spend a night or a month in jail, but it's better than 5 years for a murder you didn't commit, but the officer was pushing hard to get one more conviction before closing out FY2021
- saurik 6y ago
  While practical advice for the current state of affairs, it is irrelevant here as the whole point here is that we don't like the current state of affairs: they shouldn't get to lie to people from their position of authority and asymmetric requirements, and if it can be proven that they lied to the suspect it should be something a lawyer can use to invalidate testimony (which might be brutal for the ability to convict the person, leading to police being trained to not do it, etc.).
  - Spooky23 6y ago
    There's a spectrum of dishonesty and different ethical considerations. "Don't lie" sounds like a no-brainer, but there is alot of complexity baked in. Is the issue the use of deception to investigate crime or making specific types of dishonest statements?

syops 6y ago

The problem with never talk to the police is that they can mess with you more or less with impunity. They can beat you and not worry about retribution from the judicial system. They can arrest you in which the only charge is resisting arrest. Even if you are treated humanely when you refuse to talk to the police there is the very real possibility they will investigate your life. Given that there are civil liberties lawyers who claim that everyone commits felonies on a regular basis does one really want a big investigation into their life [1]? The power of the state to mess up your life is such that this advice might not be applicable if the cop you are dealing with is a jerk. [1] http://ulrichboser.com/how-many-felonies-did-you-commit-today-an-interview-with-harvey-silverglate/ http://ulrichboser.com/how-many-felonies-did-you-commit-toda...

fire7000 6y ago
So be respectful when talking to people who can mess your life up
wonder_er 6y ago
> The problem with never talk to the police is that they can mess with you more or less impunity. Yes! They can and will mess with you. But if you think talking to them will _reduce the chances_ of them messing you, many legal experts would disagree. Talking to them gives them additional avenues by with they might claim that you committed the crime, you're guilty, and they get to `solved_crimes_this_month += 1`. It's all risk mitigation. They might treat you illegally and immorally, for sure. They're not _less_ likely to do this if you consent to "a conversation", they're _more_ likely to do this. So, again, don't talk to police without a lawyer present. When you're lawyer gets on scene, he'll say "don't talk to them", so you'll continue to _not talk to them._ Many folks on HN that live in the USA, are statistically likely to not have particularly bad interactions with the police, but that means we have a chance (or even obligation) to normalize self-protective behaviors that persons who are not quite as (white|male|upper class| privileged) as we are might suffer repercussions for exercising. I.E. if it spreads that "privileged people don't talk to police" then "marginalized people not talking to police" are less likely to suffer abuse from said police.
- 6y ago

dredmorbius 6y ago

Legal sanction against law enforcement officer misrepresentation is a more attainable control point than 100% awareness and compliance with "don't talk to police". The latter advice is valid, and I agree with it. The change in law, with both sanctions (against officers and departments transacting such conduct) and exclusions on all evidence and testimony resulting, would be vastly more effective.

wonder_er 6y ago
Why let the perfect be the enemy of the good? > Legal sanction against law enforcement officer misrepresentation is a more attainable control point than 100% awareness and compliance with "don't talk to police". The latter advice is valid, and I agree with it. The change in law, with both sanctions (against officers and departments transacting such conduct) and exclusions on all evidence and testimony resulting, would be vastly more effective. I don't think the legal sanctions would actually _do_ anything, because legal sanctions _never_ do anything. Cops still commit crimes, however you define "commit crimes", _every day_ with zero penalty. So, any argument that says "we should ask police to stop lying, and if they lie, we'll write them up!" sounds like a non-starter. On the flip side, we don't need 100% awareness of "don't talk to police", we just need awareness to trickle into the percentage of society that has encounters with police every year. Supposedly, there's 700k police officers in the USA right now.[0] Each of those probably interacts with at least 5 people a day, but there's very much a 80:20 principle in _multiple_ contacts with police in a year. So, I'd settle with 200mm people in the USA knowing this principle. That's a measly 2/3rds of the US population. A good and entertaining music video that highlighted this fact would get us half-way there in one fell swoop. [0]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/191694/number-of-law-enforcement-officers-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/191694/number-of-law-enf...
- DennisP 6y ago
  The proposed remedy isn't to punish the lying cops, but to make the confessions obtained that way inadmissible.
  - 6y ago

jedmeyers 6y ago

> "and I can answer no further questions." Of course you CAN answer further questions since you can speak. Thus you have just lied to a law enforcement officer.

wonder_er 6y ago
Ha! Proved my point exactly. James Duane has specific recommended phrases. Maybe the use of: "and I will answer no further questions" would keep me out of jail!

TheRealDunkirk 6y ago

> Do. Not. Talk. To. Police. They are not your friend. My wife watches a lot of those crime drama shows, and the defendants who simply refuse to participate in the charade of the interrogation room harassment are the ones that walk. There's a lot of awareness now about the dramatically-increased "interaction" between police and African Americans. What I can't understand is why -- given the decades of "heightened relations" between them -- this mantra hasn't become ingrained in the collective consciousness.

username90 6y ago

> Asking police to stop lying to suspects belies an expectation for police to act contrary to human nature for _many well known reasons_. Not sure why you'd think that, the police isn't allowed to lie or deceive the suspect in Sweden like they are in USA. Sweden, lying in interrogations is not allowed: https://advokaternas.se/2020/06/07/far-polisen-ljuga-i-forhor/ https://advokaternas.se/2020/06/07/far-polisen-ljuga-i-forho... USA, lying in interrogations is allowed: https://www.apa.org/monitor/2014/05/jn https://www.apa.org/monitor/2014/05/jn