6 ms·

It’s mind boggling to me that “best reasonable effort” made it in there multiple times. That’s so vague and up to interpretation, who can blame them that they s

by dstick 6y ago

It’s mind boggling to me that “best reasonable effort” made it in there multiple times. That’s so vague and up to interpretation, who can blame them that they sold the supplies for 3x as much to another country? Anything can be construed as “best reasonable effort” - or is this specific legalese I’m unaware off?

jorvi 6y ago
Even if AstraZeneca gets away with it legally, they will be a leper to the EU and be crushed in whatever other medicine negotiations they end up having with the EU or its constituent national governments. Burning the goodwill that gets you access to a relatively rich 450 million consumers market is pretty boneheaded.
- danieldk 6y ago
  I am not sure why this is downvoted. The EU is a very large market and if the EU feels like it is badly treated, they have a lot of options to make AstraZeneca's life miserable. Anything from stronger regulation of medicine pricing to relinquishing patents. In fact, the president of the EU, Charles Michel has already hinted at invoking Article 122 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, which could force vaccine-makers to share their patents [1]. I think first it remains to be seen if AstraZeneca did something problematic. But if that is the case, one can be sure there will be political repercussions. Though I think that they are now just using the threat of repercussions to force AstraZeneca to change their policies. If they do so, this will be the first big test for the new relation between the EU and Brittain and AstraZeneca will be in the middle of it. [1] https://www.politico.eu/article/charles-michel-says-eu-could-invoke-urgent-measures-response-coronavirus-vaccine-shortfall/ https://www.politico.eu/article/charles-michel-says-eu-could...
  - kazen44 6y ago
    > In fact, the president of the EU, Charles Michel has already hinted at invoking Article 122 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, which could force vaccine-makers to share their patents In my opinion they should, This is no time to play silly games regarding contract law. Vaccines should be produced as quickly as possible by as many capable facilities as possible. Let's also not forget that most of the developing world is dead last in receiving vaccines, and greatly increasing production could prevent the death of countless lives.
  - blibble 6y ago
    to be blunt: after the past few days I don't think anyone in the UK gives a damn about the relationship with the EU talk about a unifying force
  - flembat 6y ago
    The market for the vaccine is two doses per adult per year for the entire planet. If we call it a market at all. Lots of countries need help, the EU countries should be low on the list of places requiring international aid.
- pkaye 6y ago
  But EU had months of negotiations to save a buck on a vaccine which if delayed causes far more economic damage on a daily basis.
tomas 6y ago
There is a definition in the document: 1.9. “Best Reasonable Efforts” means (a) in the case of AstraZeneca, the activities and degree of effort that a company of similar size with a similarly-sized infrastructure and similar resources as AstraZeneca would undertake or use in the development and manufacture of a Vaccine at the relevant stage of development or commercialization having regard to the urgent need for a Vaccine to end a global pandemic which is resulting in serious public health issues, restrictions on personal freedoms and economic impact, across the world but taking into account efficacy and safety; and (b) in the case of the Commission and the Participating Member States, the activities and degree of effort that governments would undertake or use in supporting their contractor in the development of the Vaccine having regard to the urgent need for a Vaccine to end a global pandemic which is resulting in serious public health issues, restrictions on personal freedoms and economic impact, across the world.
addicted 6y ago
The fundamental problem is that AstraZeneca has conflicting contracts with the UK and the EU. AstraZeneca, which apparently has no experience with maki vaccines, has messed up every part of their job. Starting with the trials (which is why the EU delayed the emergency authorization and the US hasn’t given it yet) continuing with manufacturing, and apparently now it’s becoming evident their legal department has screwed up as well.
airstrike 6y ago
IANAL but I think it qualifies as legalese you're unaware of. Also, just by definition, whatever the lawyers agreed on is likely appropriate in a legal context and a layman's criticism of the language is almost invariably because they're missing the knowledge. Imagine said lawyer reading your code and challenging you on your API design. Anyway, if challenged in court, AZ would have to demonstrate that they actually made genuine efforts before going down a different path. The addition of the word "reasonable" is because they need an out in case they feel they've spent a decent amount of efforts. Whether that amount was actually decent or not is for the judge to decide.
mrtksn 6y ago
Isn't it obvious that the "best effort" is not fulfilled if you you manage to produce 6 hamburgers to UK and one to EU when you specifically said in the contract that your facilities in the EU and UK are to be used?
- DoingIsLearning 6y ago
  The official statement from AstraZeneca's CEO is that they have a fully operational production in the UK and are still resolving production issues in the EU sites. From his explanation the EU signed their contract with a 3 month delay from the UK contract. Arguing that he is being accused of EU production issues on sites that have not had the 3 month lead time that the UK sites had to resolve any production issues. You can argue that the UK production output could potentially be distributed proportionally for worldwide demand but to me the real question is why isn't anyone in the media or in the European Commission asking questions on why did it take 3 months to draft such a bland generic urgent supply contract? I am sure the truth is probably somewhere in between but to me it seems the EC is playing the media game and trying to through AstraZeneca under a bus to cover for their own ineptitude in such a clutch time.
  - mrtksn 6y ago
    It's specifically stated in the contract that the UK facilities are covered. It's literally written in plain English, like you can read it from the document(the black markings on the white background). The continental facilities not getting online is irrelevant.
    - DoingIsLearning 6y ago
      We can agree that indeed this should be demanded. However, I ask again, why is no media outlet questioning our representatives about why they burned 3 months of people dying, to then come up with essentially the same terms as the unilateral contracts that the Dutch and the French were initially drafting? This isn't a contract to squeeze the best deal out of AZN, it is an emergency purchase, what was there to negotiate?
notahacker 6y ago
'Best reasonable effort' is defined for both parties elsewhere in the contract, but it's still very open to interpretation
- hef19898 6y ago
  I only have ever seen "best reasonable effort" in the ontext of recovering from sitations where contractual obligations aren't met. my understanding, and how it was applied, is that these situation are impossible to predict, thus the rather ominous wording.
legulere 6y ago
How is one country paying 3x as much when AstraZeneca still has an obligation to produce more or less at cost? (https://www.ft.com/content/e359159b-105c-407e-b1be-0c7a1ddb654b https://www.ft.com/content/e359159b-105c-407e-b1be-0c7a1ddb6...)
kitd 6y ago
Actually, it's specifically defined in one of the appendices.

by dstick 6y ago

jorvi 6y ago

Even if AstraZeneca gets away with it legally, they will be a leper to the EU and be crushed in whatever other medicine negotiations they end up having with the EU or its constituent national governments. Burning the goodwill that gets you access to a relatively rich 450 million consumers market is pretty boneheaded.

danieldk 6y ago
I am not sure why this is downvoted. The EU is a very large market and if the EU feels like it is badly treated, they have a lot of options to make AstraZeneca's life miserable. Anything from stronger regulation of medicine pricing to relinquishing patents. In fact, the president of the EU, Charles Michel has already hinted at invoking Article 122 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, which could force vaccine-makers to share their patents [1]. I think first it remains to be seen if AstraZeneca did something problematic. But if that is the case, one can be sure there will be political repercussions. Though I think that they are now just using the threat of repercussions to force AstraZeneca to change their policies. If they do so, this will be the first big test for the new relation between the EU and Brittain and AstraZeneca will be in the middle of it. [1] https://www.politico.eu/article/charles-michel-says-eu-could-invoke-urgent-measures-response-coronavirus-vaccine-shortfall/ https://www.politico.eu/article/charles-michel-says-eu-could...
- kazen44 6y ago
  > In fact, the president of the EU, Charles Michel has already hinted at invoking Article 122 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, which could force vaccine-makers to share their patents In my opinion they should, This is no time to play silly games regarding contract law. Vaccines should be produced as quickly as possible by as many capable facilities as possible. Let's also not forget that most of the developing world is dead last in receiving vaccines, and greatly increasing production could prevent the death of countless lives.
- blibble 6y ago
  to be blunt: after the past few days I don't think anyone in the UK gives a damn about the relationship with the EU talk about a unifying force
- flembat 6y ago
  The market for the vaccine is two doses per adult per year for the entire planet. If we call it a market at all. Lots of countries need help, the EU countries should be low on the list of places requiring international aid.
pkaye 6y ago
But EU had months of negotiations to save a buck on a vaccine which if delayed causes far more economic damage on a daily basis.

tomas 6y ago

There is a definition in the document: 1.9. “Best Reasonable Efforts” means (a) in the case of AstraZeneca, the activities and degree of effort that a company of similar size with a similarly-sized infrastructure and similar resources as AstraZeneca would undertake or use in the development and manufacture of a Vaccine at the relevant stage of development or commercialization having regard to the urgent need for a Vaccine to end a global pandemic which is resulting in serious public health issues, restrictions on personal freedoms and economic impact, across the world but taking into account efficacy and safety; and (b) in the case of the Commission and the Participating Member States, the activities and degree of effort that governments would undertake or use in supporting their contractor in the development of the Vaccine having regard to the urgent need for a Vaccine to end a global pandemic which is resulting in serious public health issues, restrictions on personal freedoms and economic impact, across the world.

addicted 6y ago

The fundamental problem is that AstraZeneca has conflicting contracts with the UK and the EU. AstraZeneca, which apparently has no experience with maki vaccines, has messed up every part of their job. Starting with the trials (which is why the EU delayed the emergency authorization and the US hasn’t given it yet) continuing with manufacturing, and apparently now it’s becoming evident their legal department has screwed up as well.

airstrike 6y ago

IANAL but I think it qualifies as legalese you're unaware of. Also, just by definition, whatever the lawyers agreed on is likely appropriate in a legal context and a layman's criticism of the language is almost invariably because they're missing the knowledge. Imagine said lawyer reading your code and challenging you on your API design. Anyway, if challenged in court, AZ would have to demonstrate that they actually made genuine efforts before going down a different path. The addition of the word "reasonable" is because they need an out in case they feel they've spent a decent amount of efforts. Whether that amount was actually decent or not is for the judge to decide.

mrtksn 6y ago

Isn't it obvious that the "best effort" is not fulfilled if you you manage to produce 6 hamburgers to UK and one to EU when you specifically said in the contract that your facilities in the EU and UK are to be used?

DoingIsLearning 6y ago
The official statement from AstraZeneca's CEO is that they have a fully operational production in the UK and are still resolving production issues in the EU sites. From his explanation the EU signed their contract with a 3 month delay from the UK contract. Arguing that he is being accused of EU production issues on sites that have not had the 3 month lead time that the UK sites had to resolve any production issues. You can argue that the UK production output could potentially be distributed proportionally for worldwide demand but to me the real question is why isn't anyone in the media or in the European Commission asking questions on why did it take 3 months to draft such a bland generic urgent supply contract? I am sure the truth is probably somewhere in between but to me it seems the EC is playing the media game and trying to through AstraZeneca under a bus to cover for their own ineptitude in such a clutch time.
- mrtksn 6y ago
  It's specifically stated in the contract that the UK facilities are covered. It's literally written in plain English, like you can read it from the document(the black markings on the white background). The continental facilities not getting online is irrelevant.
  - DoingIsLearning 6y ago
    We can agree that indeed this should be demanded. However, I ask again, why is no media outlet questioning our representatives about why they burned 3 months of people dying, to then come up with essentially the same terms as the unilateral contracts that the Dutch and the French were initially drafting? This isn't a contract to squeeze the best deal out of AZN, it is an emergency purchase, what was there to negotiate?

notahacker 6y ago

'Best reasonable effort' is defined for both parties elsewhere in the contract, but it's still very open to interpretation

hef19898 6y ago
I only have ever seen "best reasonable effort" in the ontext of recovering from sitations where contractual obligations aren't met. my understanding, and how it was applied, is that these situation are impossible to predict, thus the rather ominous wording.

legulere 6y ago

How is one country paying 3x as much when AstraZeneca still has an obligation to produce more or less at cost? (https://www.ft.com/content/e359159b-105c-407e-b1be-0c7a1ddb654b https://www.ft.com/content/e359159b-105c-407e-b1be-0c7a1ddb6...)

kitd 6y ago

Actually, it's specifically defined in one of the appendices.