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This was a reply I wrote to tptacek (first quoted part his) - > Meanwhile, not having up-to-the-minute scores makes the site more pleasant to participate in; o

This was a reply I wrote to tptacek (first quoted part his) - > Meanwhile, not having up-to-the-minute scores makes the site more pleasant to participate in; one isn't prodded to make statements in reaction to ludicrous (and likely ephemeral) voting swings. I feel the same. The change makes the site a bit harder to consume - particularly, skimming-quickly-for-a-couple-good-points is harder. But it makes the site much nicer to participate in. First, I don't feel the need to reply to mean, nasty, or incorrect replies to me unless I have something to add. Second - and I think this is really nice - voting has become less about promoting an argument or viewpoint and more about saying "thanks for this" or "less of this, please" - I find myself voting up thoughtful stuff I disagree with more often now, and voting less frequently overall. Personally, I'd say the site is harder to consume efficiently now, but more pleasant to interact with. -- It'd be interesting to see voting by people who are regular/frequent commentors vs. mostly lurkers, if there was a way to segment it out somehow. I bet the response rates are different between the two groups.

agraddy 15y ago
I'm basically a lurker (I'm guessing I've probably been around for about two years although I've only had an account for about a year). I frequent Hacker News because it's a good technology news filter that keeps me informed of the latest trends without having to sift through link bait blog posts in Google Reader. For me, the enjoyment of lurking has definitely declined with scores being hidden because it's difficult to quickly find valuable comments. I voted for "I liked it better when comment scores were displayed." I'd agree that comment wars have declined which probably makes it a much more enjoyable experience for frequent commenters. Having comment scores shown seems to encourage lurking and quick consumption while hidden scores seems to encourage thoughtful comments but it makes lurking difficult. I'm guessing the goals of the site are focused more towards commenters/community than it is towards lurkers.
akikuchi 15y ago
As a starting point, I think there is not much downside in showing full integer comment scores for comments over n (n=2?) days old. In addition, I think there are a variety of ways of improving the "ease of consumption" (ie scanning for good comments) without re-introducing the gaming-type issues with integer comment scores. For example: 1. Use a log(karma) function or some other simple obfuscation method 2. Highlight/mark comments by a small number of point thresholds or quantiles 3. Highlight/mark only the top x% of comments on a thread I do think there is value in seeing some signals of comment quality, but I don't think these need to be particularly granular at all (even just one or two "good comment tiers" could be sufficient).
crystalis 15y ago
Perhaps some modifications to /bestcomments would ameliorate the need for visible comment scores as a consumption guide. A tiny star or somesuch that linked to the /bestcomments page would seem to fit natural use pretty well.
blakeweb 15y ago
I'm basically a lurker as well (< a dozen comments in 3 years probably), but despite the increased difficulty in identifying the best contributions to a discussion, I still overall feel I and the site both are better off without the comment scores visible. The quality of discussion has improved so drastically that I'm ok with the fact that it's harder for me to visually dissect the wheat from the chaff. The site was better with scores 2 years ago than it is now, but given the options at present, I'd stick with pg's decision.
jasonlotito 15y ago
> But it makes the site much nicer to participate in ... snip ... To play the devil here... Basically, you need the site to provide you with restraints to overcome your self control problems? > First, I don't feel the need to reply to mean, nasty, or incorrect replies to me unless I have something to add. You never did before. In fact, you shouldn't have. You upvote comments that add to the discussion, and down vote comments that do not add any value. > Second - and I think this is really nice - voting has become less about promoting an argument or viewpoint and more about saying "thanks for this" or "less of this, please" It's always been that way. Or at least, that's how I always approached it. That you weren't doing that before was your problem. > I find myself voting up thoughtful stuff I disagree with more often now, and voting less frequently overall. I find myself voting less frequent as well. Mostly because it serves not real purpose now. Whereas before, I could upvote quality comments, now the only person who sees quality comments is that person. The arguments I see for hiding of the points seem to revolve around solving personal issues people have. Your comment succinctly displays that. Now, let me just say that I don't care whether points are shown or not. That, I believe, is the wrong argument. Rather, comments should be highlighted based on their value relative to other comments under the same post. This means specific points aren't revealed. Highly valued comments are highlighted. People browsing for information get a better understanding of what is valuable and what isn't. Otherwise, what's the value in having a points system? By not using it to display valued comments, it makes having points pointless (honestly, no pun intended). Edit: I want to be clear, I'm being fairly straightforward above. I'm not intending to attack you. If I was too succinct and it came off too harsh, please forgive me. Your comment was a good one, and I don't want you offended by what I wrote. =)
- scott_s 15y ago
  Basically, you need the site to provide you with restraints to overcome your self control problems? Yes, as do you, me, and everyone else. Although It's not so much a self control problem as it is that we're all susceptible to the same biases.
  - jasonlotito 15y ago
    Yes. The point I was trying to get across. =) However, that begs the question then: why bother with display points at all? If they serve no purpose externally, then they don't need to be shown.
lotharbot 15y ago
> voting has become less about promoting an argument or viewpoint and more about saying "thanks for this" or "less of this, please" The problem with not displaying comment scores (or other approximate indicators) is that I have no way to know how my "this is good" or "less of this" votes will interact with other votes. In particular, there are times when I see a comment that I think deserves to be at 1 but not 0, and without scores, I don't know whether my downvote will take it too low.

agraddy 15y ago

I'm basically a lurker (I'm guessing I've probably been around for about two years although I've only had an account for about a year). I frequent Hacker News because it's a good technology news filter that keeps me informed of the latest trends without having to sift through link bait blog posts in Google Reader. For me, the enjoyment of lurking has definitely declined with scores being hidden because it's difficult to quickly find valuable comments. I voted for "I liked it better when comment scores were displayed." I'd agree that comment wars have declined which probably makes it a much more enjoyable experience for frequent commenters. Having comment scores shown seems to encourage lurking and quick consumption while hidden scores seems to encourage thoughtful comments but it makes lurking difficult. I'm guessing the goals of the site are focused more towards commenters/community than it is towards lurkers.

akikuchi 15y ago

As a starting point, I think there is not much downside in showing full integer comment scores for comments over n (n=2?) days old. In addition, I think there are a variety of ways of improving the "ease of consumption" (ie scanning for good comments) without re-introducing the gaming-type issues with integer comment scores. For example: 1. Use a log(karma) function or some other simple obfuscation method 2. Highlight/mark comments by a small number of point thresholds or quantiles 3. Highlight/mark only the top x% of comments on a thread I do think there is value in seeing some signals of comment quality, but I don't think these need to be particularly granular at all (even just one or two "good comment tiers" could be sufficient).

crystalis 15y ago

Perhaps some modifications to /bestcomments would ameliorate the need for visible comment scores as a consumption guide. A tiny star or somesuch that linked to the /bestcomments page would seem to fit natural use pretty well.

blakeweb 15y ago

I'm basically a lurker as well (< a dozen comments in 3 years probably), but despite the increased difficulty in identifying the best contributions to a discussion, I still overall feel I and the site both are better off without the comment scores visible. The quality of discussion has improved so drastically that I'm ok with the fact that it's harder for me to visually dissect the wheat from the chaff. The site was better with scores 2 years ago than it is now, but given the options at present, I'd stick with pg's decision.

jasonlotito 15y ago

> But it makes the site much nicer to participate in ... snip ... To play the devil here... Basically, you need the site to provide you with restraints to overcome your self control problems? > First, I don't feel the need to reply to mean, nasty, or incorrect replies to me unless I have something to add. You never did before. In fact, you shouldn't have. You upvote comments that add to the discussion, and down vote comments that do not add any value. > Second - and I think this is really nice - voting has become less about promoting an argument or viewpoint and more about saying "thanks for this" or "less of this, please" It's always been that way. Or at least, that's how I always approached it. That you weren't doing that before was your problem. > I find myself voting up thoughtful stuff I disagree with more often now, and voting less frequently overall. I find myself voting less frequent as well. Mostly because it serves not real purpose now. Whereas before, I could upvote quality comments, now the only person who sees quality comments is that person. The arguments I see for hiding of the points seem to revolve around solving personal issues people have. Your comment succinctly displays that. Now, let me just say that I don't care whether points are shown or not. That, I believe, is the wrong argument. Rather, comments should be highlighted based on their value relative to other comments under the same post. This means specific points aren't revealed. Highly valued comments are highlighted. People browsing for information get a better understanding of what is valuable and what isn't. Otherwise, what's the value in having a points system? By not using it to display valued comments, it makes having points pointless (honestly, no pun intended). Edit: I want to be clear, I'm being fairly straightforward above. I'm not intending to attack you. If I was too succinct and it came off too harsh, please forgive me. Your comment was a good one, and I don't want you offended by what I wrote. =)

scott_s 15y ago
Basically, you need the site to provide you with restraints to overcome your self control problems? Yes, as do you, me, and everyone else. Although It's not so much a self control problem as it is that we're all susceptible to the same biases.
- jasonlotito 15y ago
  Yes. The point I was trying to get across. =) However, that begs the question then: why bother with display points at all? If they serve no purpose externally, then they don't need to be shown.

lotharbot 15y ago

> voting has become less about promoting an argument or viewpoint and more about saying "thanks for this" or "less of this, please" The problem with not displaying comment scores (or other approximate indicators) is that I have no way to know how my "this is good" or "less of this" votes will interact with other votes. In particular, there are times when I see a comment that I think deserves to be at 1 but not 0, and without scores, I don't know whether my downvote will take it too low.