3 ms·

It is also being worked upon by only 17 people as opposed to the 500+ dev teams for AAA games.

linkdd 6y ago
I'm not sure to understand your point. More devs does not mean less bugs, it does not mean faster development, in fact, it does not mean anything. An AAA game may need 500+ games, because that's what the technological constraint requires in terms of brain matter. If big studio could launch an AAA game with only 10 devs, they would do it.
- newswasboring 6y ago
  Yes they don't do it with 10 devs because the complexity is high. You don't think you need a larger team to handle complexity? Or you think the 500+ team normalized to complexity actually tell that AAA are understaffed.
  - linkdd 6y ago
    I do think you need more dev to handle more complexity. But more dev to have less bugs, or to develop faster is like saying that with 9 pregnant women, you can deliver a baby in 1 month.
    - newswasboring 6y ago
      So you are saying in a large complex project there are no impact on bugs by number of devs? I'm not saying there is a linear relationship but it's naive to say that having a large team does not help you handle bugs.
  - sleepybrett 6y ago
    I imagine at one of these 500+ companies the majority of those are in the art department. I'm thinking about say DICE. DICE has made essentially the same game (battlefield/battlefront) about 10 times. The 3d engine does get upgraded game to game, but clearly the majority of the delta between games is simply the art.
- mpalmer 6y ago
  > If big studio could launch an AAA game with only 10 devs, they would do it. They could, if they gave themselves 8 years. Factorio has been in development since 2012. AAA games ship on a deadline; naturally the work is divided as much as possible among many teams. More devs can in fact mean faster development if you're OK compromising on quality.
freddie_mercury 6y ago
This comparison is somewhat misleading though. AAA games like Call of Duty Modern Warfare (2019) only have 50-60 developers. But then they'll have another 50-60 designers. 15 audio people. 40 animators. 90 artists. Most of that large team size is caused by the realistic graphics, which Factorio (and most other indie games) simply don't have.
- newswasboring 6y ago
  Well the factorio team is also only 4 developers, 1 tech lead, 1 art lead and 1 3D modeler for some reason. You still think its misleading comparison?[1] [1]https://factorio.com/game/about https://factorio.com/game/about
  - Macha 6y ago
    The factorio graphics are designed in 3d and pre-rendered to 2d for use in the game
  - momothereal 6y ago
    Here's more info on their GFX pipeline, where Blender is used to create the 3D models then pre-rendered for the game: https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-146 https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-146 (2016)
jl6 6y ago
I believe code quality to be closely related to the quality of communication between developers, and it’s a lot easier to achieve high quality communication in a smaller team.
- fastball 6y ago
  Right but that's not OC's point. How long do you think it would take a 4-person dev team to build something the scope of Cyberpunk 2077?
  - DonHopkins 6y ago
    The Sims (the original version) started with around 4 developers during its first 6 or so years, and it took quite a long time to develop. And yes, the team was quite tight and focused, with excellent "high" quality communication (in that we smoked lots of weed together). More developers and artists and designers came in towards the end, after EA bought Maxis, but the original version had a much smaller team than any of the subsequent version. It pains me to recall how crude and primitive it was even a year and a half before the release (check out the awful flamingo and telephone and fish tank graphics, not to mention the characters and animations themselves, like pot-bellied Archie Bunker always holding a cigar in his hand, and the naughty scenario description text @ 40:44) -- a whole lot of content and user interface and tuning was done at the very last moment: The Sims Steering Committee - June 4 1998. A demo of an early pre-release version of The Sims for The Sims Steering Committee at EA, developed June 4 1998. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC52jE60KjY&ab_channel=DonHopkins https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC52jE60KjY&ab_channel=DonHo... Chris Trottier, one of the designers, calls it "Tuned Emergence" and "Design by Accretion": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20772916 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20772916 Here's an interview with Chris Trottier, one of the designers of The Sims, in which she describes "Tuned Emergence and Design by Accretion". Sims Designer Chris Trottier on Tuned Emergence and Design by Accretion https://web.archive.org/web/20110408034710/https://www.donhopkins.com/drupal/node/31 https://web.archive.org/web/20110408034710/https://www.donho... >Chris' honest analysis of how and why "the gameplay didn't come together until the months before the ship" is right on the mark, and that's the secret to the success of games like The Sims and SimCity. >The essential element that was missing until the last minute was tuning: The approach to game design that Maxis brought to the table is called "Tuned Emergence" and "Design by Accretion". Before it was tuned, The Sims wasn't missing any structure or content, but it just wasn't balanced yet. But it's OK, because that's how it's supposed to work! >In justifying their approach to The Sims, Maxis had to explain to EA that SimCity 2000 was not fun until 6 weeks before it shipped. But EA was not comfortable with that approach, which went against every rule in their play book. It required Will Wright's tremendous stamina to convince EA not to cancel The Sims, because according to EA's formula, it would never work. >If a game isn't tuned, it's a drag, and you can't stand to play it for an hour. The Sims and SimCity were "designed by accretion": incrementally assembled together out of "a mass of separate components", like a planet forming out of a cloud of dust orbiting around star. They had to reach critical mass first, before they could even start down the road towards "Tuned Emergence", like life finally taking hold on the planet surface. Even then, they weren't fun until they were carefully tuned just before they shipped, like the renaissance of civilization suddenly developing science and technology. Before it was properly tuned, The Sims was called "the toilet game", for the obvious reason that there wasn't much else to do!
slightwinder 6y ago
AAA Games usually have a different realm of complexity and quality than factorio. Factorio is one-trick-game, in the sense that there is one thing it's doing really really good, while AAA games are doing many different things at the same time and sell you the whole package. For example, graphic of factorio is very basic. Level-design is not really existing, nor is there any story, music, highly optimized cutscenes, a quest-system or a constantly balanced battle-system. Multiplayer is rather basic, not some high level infrastructure with dozens of servers for 100k+ players. There is also no big marketing where you deliver some stuff outside the game. And Factorio is running only on PC, not consoles or mobiles. Basically, Factorio is 95% high level code which makes it successful because people enjoy the gameplay coming from this code; while AAA games are successful because of the 95% of things which are not code. People enjoy the gameplay, but even more do they like what is on top and around the engine. The story, the interaction, the atmosphere...

I'm not sure to understand your point. More devs does not mean less bugs, it does not mean faster development, in fact, it does not mean anything. An AAA game may need 500+ games, because that's what the technological constraint requires in terms of brain matter. If big studio could launch an AAA game with only 10 devs, they would do it.

newswasboring 6y ago
Yes they don't do it with 10 devs because the complexity is high. You don't think you need a larger team to handle complexity? Or you think the 500+ team normalized to complexity actually tell that AAA are understaffed.
- linkdd 6y ago
  I do think you need more dev to handle more complexity. But more dev to have less bugs, or to develop faster is like saying that with 9 pregnant women, you can deliver a baby in 1 month.
  - newswasboring 6y ago
    So you are saying in a large complex project there are no impact on bugs by number of devs? I'm not saying there is a linear relationship but it's naive to say that having a large team does not help you handle bugs.
- sleepybrett 6y ago
  I imagine at one of these 500+ companies the majority of those are in the art department. I'm thinking about say DICE. DICE has made essentially the same game (battlefield/battlefront) about 10 times. The 3d engine does get upgraded game to game, but clearly the majority of the delta between games is simply the art.
mpalmer 6y ago
> If big studio could launch an AAA game with only 10 devs, they would do it. They could, if they gave themselves 8 years. Factorio has been in development since 2012. AAA games ship on a deadline; naturally the work is divided as much as possible among many teams. More devs can in fact mean faster development if you're OK compromising on quality.

freddie_mercury 6y ago

This comparison is somewhat misleading though. AAA games like Call of Duty Modern Warfare (2019) only have 50-60 developers. But then they'll have another 50-60 designers. 15 audio people. 40 animators. 90 artists. Most of that large team size is caused by the realistic graphics, which Factorio (and most other indie games) simply don't have.

newswasboring 6y ago
Well the factorio team is also only 4 developers, 1 tech lead, 1 art lead and 1 3D modeler for some reason. You still think its misleading comparison?[1] [1]https://factorio.com/game/about https://factorio.com/game/about
- Macha 6y ago
  The factorio graphics are designed in 3d and pre-rendered to 2d for use in the game
- momothereal 6y ago
  Here's more info on their GFX pipeline, where Blender is used to create the 3D models then pre-rendered for the game: https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-146 https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-146 (2016)

jl6 6y ago

I believe code quality to be closely related to the quality of communication between developers, and it’s a lot easier to achieve high quality communication in a smaller team.

fastball 6y ago
Right but that's not OC's point. How long do you think it would take a 4-person dev team to build something the scope of Cyberpunk 2077?
- DonHopkins 6y ago
  The Sims (the original version) started with around 4 developers during its first 6 or so years, and it took quite a long time to develop. And yes, the team was quite tight and focused, with excellent "high" quality communication (in that we smoked lots of weed together). More developers and artists and designers came in towards the end, after EA bought Maxis, but the original version had a much smaller team than any of the subsequent version. It pains me to recall how crude and primitive it was even a year and a half before the release (check out the awful flamingo and telephone and fish tank graphics, not to mention the characters and animations themselves, like pot-bellied Archie Bunker always holding a cigar in his hand, and the naughty scenario description text @ 40:44) -- a whole lot of content and user interface and tuning was done at the very last moment: The Sims Steering Committee - June 4 1998. A demo of an early pre-release version of The Sims for The Sims Steering Committee at EA, developed June 4 1998. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC52jE60KjY&ab_channel=DonHopkins https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC52jE60KjY&ab_channel=DonHo... Chris Trottier, one of the designers, calls it "Tuned Emergence" and "Design by Accretion": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20772916 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20772916 Here's an interview with Chris Trottier, one of the designers of The Sims, in which she describes "Tuned Emergence and Design by Accretion". Sims Designer Chris Trottier on Tuned Emergence and Design by Accretion https://web.archive.org/web/20110408034710/https://www.donhopkins.com/drupal/node/31 https://web.archive.org/web/20110408034710/https://www.donho... >Chris' honest analysis of how and why "the gameplay didn't come together until the months before the ship" is right on the mark, and that's the secret to the success of games like The Sims and SimCity. >The essential element that was missing until the last minute was tuning: The approach to game design that Maxis brought to the table is called "Tuned Emergence" and "Design by Accretion". Before it was tuned, The Sims wasn't missing any structure or content, but it just wasn't balanced yet. But it's OK, because that's how it's supposed to work! >In justifying their approach to The Sims, Maxis had to explain to EA that SimCity 2000 was not fun until 6 weeks before it shipped. But EA was not comfortable with that approach, which went against every rule in their play book. It required Will Wright's tremendous stamina to convince EA not to cancel The Sims, because according to EA's formula, it would never work. >If a game isn't tuned, it's a drag, and you can't stand to play it for an hour. The Sims and SimCity were "designed by accretion": incrementally assembled together out of "a mass of separate components", like a planet forming out of a cloud of dust orbiting around star. They had to reach critical mass first, before they could even start down the road towards "Tuned Emergence", like life finally taking hold on the planet surface. Even then, they weren't fun until they were carefully tuned just before they shipped, like the renaissance of civilization suddenly developing science and technology. Before it was properly tuned, The Sims was called "the toilet game", for the obvious reason that there wasn't much else to do!

slightwinder 6y ago

AAA Games usually have a different realm of complexity and quality than factorio. Factorio is one-trick-game, in the sense that there is one thing it's doing really really good, while AAA games are doing many different things at the same time and sell you the whole package. For example, graphic of factorio is very basic. Level-design is not really existing, nor is there any story, music, highly optimized cutscenes, a quest-system or a constantly balanced battle-system. Multiplayer is rather basic, not some high level infrastructure with dozens of servers for 100k+ players. There is also no big marketing where you deliver some stuff outside the game. And Factorio is running only on PC, not consoles or mobiles. Basically, Factorio is 95% high level code which makes it successful because people enjoy the gameplay coming from this code; while AAA games are successful because of the 95% of things which are not code. People enjoy the gameplay, but even more do they like what is on top and around the engine. The story, the interaction, the atmosphere...