5 ms·

A ban is ineffectual without consequences. Criminal prosecution of police chiefs is what's needed, IMO.

dimitrios1 6y ago
There are more types of consequences than just penal ones. For example, I imagine if they are indeed banned, and a case against a defendant is built around the usage of the technology, then that case would get dropped. That is a consequence in of itself as it wasted valuable prosecutorial resources, department resources, etc.
- smt88 6y ago
  Unfortunately, you have situations where cases are started using inadmissible investigation tactics, but presented to a jury without them. In those situations, the prosecution may succeed, which actually adds incentive to conduct the illegal investigations.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  Do individuals care about wasted taxpayer’s resources? They’re getting paid to do their job, regardless of dropped case or not. The defendant spends their time and money and has to live a stressful life.
- cwkoss 6y ago
  It is obvious that waste of public resources is not an effective deterrent of police lawlessness. Police leaders should go to prison if they willfully violate the law.
sneak 6y ago
Police in the US don't enforce the laws against other police or other powerful figures in governments, for the most part. This results in two different sets of laws, one that applies to police and government officials, and a much broader set that applies to you and I. The idea that the law is applied equally is a total fiction.
snarf21 6y ago
I think the more practical consequence is to fine and place injunctions on the software providers. They have the most to lose for violating compliance.
tehwebguy 6y ago
Police are largely protected from criminal prosecution because they know exactly how cruel and inhumane the criminal justice system is. If they are indicted they often have special rules for how and when they will be arrested / interrogated through union contracts. A way to solve this is legislation at the local level that a) makes some of these specific unequal rules illegal, but also b) fixes the inhumane parts of the justice system for everyone.
LinuxBender 6y ago
Money drives everything AFAIK. So if laws existed that allowed a state to withhold budget to a county that had cops not following rules, then the county would take interest. If the counties could withhold funding from cities that had bad cops, the mayors would take interest. Or perhaps the laws could permit budget reallocation. I doubt any such laws would ever get passed, but in theory this could help keep people focused. Another challenge is sunk cost. San Diego for example has LED street lights that are also cameras and microphones, being used for machine learning. Would they ever rip those out if they were deemed illegal? Or would they just pause the collection and wait for people to forget? [1] [1] - https://www.govtech.com/smart-cities/Smart-Streetlight-Data-Collection-Pauses-in-San-Diego.html https://www.govtech.com/smart-cities/Smart-Streetlight-Data-...
- 8note 6y ago
  Cities don't have much ability to handle bad cops though. The police unions are too powerful
  - LinuxBender 6y ago
    Very true, good point.

There are more types of consequences than just penal ones. For example, I imagine if they are indeed banned, and a case against a defendant is built around the usage of the technology, then that case would get dropped. That is a consequence in of itself as it wasted valuable prosecutorial resources, department resources, etc.

smt88 6y ago
Unfortunately, you have situations where cases are started using inadmissible investigation tactics, but presented to a jury without them. In those situations, the prosecution may succeed, which actually adds incentive to conduct the illegal investigations.
lotsofpulp 6y ago
Do individuals care about wasted taxpayer’s resources? They’re getting paid to do their job, regardless of dropped case or not. The defendant spends their time and money and has to live a stressful life.
cwkoss 6y ago
It is obvious that waste of public resources is not an effective deterrent of police lawlessness. Police leaders should go to prison if they willfully violate the law.

sneak 6y ago

Police in the US don't enforce the laws against other police or other powerful figures in governments, for the most part. This results in two different sets of laws, one that applies to police and government officials, and a much broader set that applies to you and I. The idea that the law is applied equally is a total fiction.

snarf21 6y ago

I think the more practical consequence is to fine and place injunctions on the software providers. They have the most to lose for violating compliance.

tehwebguy 6y ago

Police are largely protected from criminal prosecution because they know exactly how cruel and inhumane the criminal justice system is. If they are indicted they often have special rules for how and when they will be arrested / interrogated through union contracts. A way to solve this is legislation at the local level that a) makes some of these specific unequal rules illegal, but also b) fixes the inhumane parts of the justice system for everyone.

LinuxBender 6y ago

Money drives everything AFAIK. So if laws existed that allowed a state to withhold budget to a county that had cops not following rules, then the county would take interest. If the counties could withhold funding from cities that had bad cops, the mayors would take interest. Or perhaps the laws could permit budget reallocation. I doubt any such laws would ever get passed, but in theory this could help keep people focused. Another challenge is sunk cost. San Diego for example has LED street lights that are also cameras and microphones, being used for machine learning. Would they ever rip those out if they were deemed illegal? Or would they just pause the collection and wait for people to forget? [1] [1] - https://www.govtech.com/smart-cities/Smart-Streetlight-Data-Collection-Pauses-in-San-Diego.html https://www.govtech.com/smart-cities/Smart-Streetlight-Data-...

8note 6y ago
Cities don't have much ability to handle bad cops though. The police unions are too powerful
- LinuxBender 6y ago
  Very true, good point.