5 ms·

This kind of thing has been shown in all sorts of creative endeavour. But it ignores consistency, which is the main mark of professionalism. Yeah, if you disre

This kind of thing has been shown in all sorts of creative endeavour. But it ignores consistency, which is the main mark of professionalism. Yeah, if you disregard all rules and norms sometimes you come up with something AMAZING that no-one following the rules could ever conceive of. But most of the the time it's just crap.

Gravityloss 6y ago
That's why it's so fun to go to things like band competitions. Everybody plays about four songs. You see so much variety there. I guess it doesn't suit those people who just listen to the radio. Same about random small cafes or bars with live music.
- Mauricebranagh 6y ago
  There is the equivalent at gaming conventions. I remember at games expo (Birmigham UK) playing an alpha version of a game in the main convention bar one evening. While reminds me I really must try and put some of my ideas for doing a 'Allo 'Allo! / Colditz mash up
- jonplackett 6y ago
  The good thing about that is you're not expecting too much - the secret to happiness is low expectations. But it's not a great method of doing business!
  - xpe 6y ago
    Well, I don't think it is "the" secret, and probably not a "secret" at all. (At least, I hope not.) Regarding happiness, Maslow's model [1] is well-known and makes sense to me. As I understand it, happiness is built on a foundation by satisfying: 1. physiological needs 2. safety needs 3. belongingness & love needs (i.e. connectedness) 4. esteem needs 5. self-actualization Though, per Wikipedia: - "There is little scientific basis to the idea: Maslow himself noted this criticism." - "However, it has been pointed out that, although the ideas behind the hierarchy are Maslow's, the pyramid itself does not exist anywhere in Maslow's original work." And my views: - I question the universality of #5. There are many people who could, technically, accomplish 'more' that are happy doing 'less'. Perhaps #5 would be better explained as "agency" -- the ability to choose a path in life? - That said -- I agree with you -- there is something to be said for expecting 'less'. This idea is compatible with "make the most of what you have". But less relative to what? For example, should one expect to be safe from violence, at least most of the time? - The studies around "good" stress versus "bad" stress come into play too. This is consistent with sayings such as "the bad times help us appreciate the good times" and "we better appreciate the things we work for". - Still, I believe that people, in general, are happier and more developed if they are not unnecessarily constrained. Unpacking this idea probably would requires a discussion of how individuals relate to society as well as normative theory of justice. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs
    - jonplackett 6y ago
      I found this to be a much better explanation and takes into account the weird ways some people seem to be sad when they should be happy vice versa. https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_the_surprising_science_of_happiness/up-next https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_the_surprising_science...
ChrisRR 6y ago
This is the basis of so many products on kickstarter. Either that they have a good novel idea but lack the knowledge of the professionals to make it a polished, (and balanced in the case of games) product, or that they think they have a new idea but they don't realise it's just a bad idea that the industry has avoided for a reason. I don't disagree that there's been some great indie games, but there's been a lot of highly advertised crap too
bovermyer 6y ago
Keep in mind that hobbyists sometimes spend as much, or more, time than professionals at a given craft. I've known people with incredible skill at specific trades, but they had something completely different as their day job.
- boogies 6y ago
  So true. Microsoft Encarta was never going to out-compete Wikipedia. And Windows Shell is never going to rip out bloat as ruthlessly as dwm, or lay it on as thickly as Compiz, or be as customizable as anything other than GNOME 3+.
- svachalek 6y ago
  Good point. Einstein is probably the most famous example of this, doing his early work while working in a patent office. Gene Wolfe (Wikipedia: "He was often considered to be not only one of the greatest science fiction authors, but one of the best American writers regardless of genre.") is another, he wrote most of his famous works while working a day job as an engineer and editor.
boogies 6y ago
> But most of the the time it's just *bleep*.¹ In other words, Sturgeon’s revelation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law) ¹(as my browser displays it bc https://greasyfork.org/en/scripts/23624-profanity-filter https://greasyfork.org/en/scripts/23624-profanity-filter)
dalbasal 6y ago
A group of 20 year old musicians wrote a better song than professionally trained composer with 40 years of experience... once.
- itronitron 6y ago
  or just compare "White Rabbit" to "We Built This City"
  - cookie_monsta 6y ago
    I don't think I even have a starting point to make that comparison
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
vishnugupta 6y ago
Big Macs vs The Naked Chef[1] is somewhat relevant in this context. [1] https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2001/01/18/big-macs-vs-the-naked-chef/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2001/01/18/big-macs-vs-the-na...
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
The mean quality of amateur designs is lower, but the variance is much, much higher. When a creative market reaches a scale where thousands or hundreds of thousands of amateurs can experiment with new designs, the number of outliers surpassing the quality of professional designs is significant. The challenge is finding a high-throughput way to filter those amateur board games. We like to think the best games will rise to the top, but at scale this becomes a popularity contest. Furthermore, the line between amateur and professional blurs quickly when the amateurs start selling their products. Once someone starts a Kickstarter or opens a store to sell their amateur board game, they are effectively professionals. They tend to start behaving as such.
- xpe 6y ago
  > Furthermore, the line between amateur and professional blurs quickly when the amateurs start selling their products. Once someone starts a Kickstarter or opens a store to sell their amateur board game, they are effectively professionals. They tend to start behaving as such. Yes, in the sense that they have to factor in "professional" responsibilities, such as paying attention to costs; e.g. production and marketing. However, I think when many people say "professional game designer" I think they may (rightly or wrongly) include "seasoned" (i.e. with a track record). Of course, both amateurs and professionals may be seasoned. And both may have passion and dedication to their work.
- irrational 6y ago
  > We like to think the best games will rise to the top, but at scale this becomes a popularity contest. There are 5,000 new board games released every year (and that isn't even including expansions to previously release games). The challenge is sifting through thousands of new games to pick out the wheat from the chaff. The games from popular designers are much more likely to be successful than from up and comers. I often wonder how many gems among those 5,000 games never get noticed.
ballenf 6y ago
Maybe amateurs can more easily escape local maximas because they don't know the ingrained rules that lead to them.
- xpe 6y ago
  Yes, perhaps. Also, perhaps expert knowledge of common tendencies can help to avoid local maxima.
andrewon 6y ago
Survivorship bias is also relevant -- what we can find in the market from hobbists got to be the good ones or happened to find niche markets that the professionals overlooked/passed.
tialaramex 6y ago
But I don't have to play most of the games produced this way. So I don't experience the crap. If you make six wildly different board games, five of which are utter trash, and one is genius, I never have to play the five trash games at all. This is the same in a lot of creative fields. Novels, pop music, video games, movies. A handful of professional reviewers might see dozens at a time, but I see a couple based on their recommendations, and maybe I like half of what I see even though Sturgeon's revelation is correct.
phnofive 6y ago
I mean, this is such a generic concept - there are parallels in viral evolution we see in the real world. There is such strong survivorship bias in comparing the top slice of amateurs to all professionals, who of course have different goals.
JKCalhoun 6y ago
Thats okay though. Alexey Pajitnov's "Tetris" was all he ever needed to do, all the world needed. Perhaps though I don't treat games like music where I need a new fix constantly, am happy to find a new game I enjoy every year or so.
JoeAltmaier 6y ago
90% of everything is crap. 90% of the 'consistent' games are also more crap. Idie developers came up win Pandemic, Dominion, Settlers of Catan etc. Novel game mechanics that changed the board game world.

Gravityloss 6y ago

That's why it's so fun to go to things like band competitions. Everybody plays about four songs. You see so much variety there. I guess it doesn't suit those people who just listen to the radio. Same about random small cafes or bars with live music.

Mauricebranagh 6y ago
There is the equivalent at gaming conventions. I remember at games expo (Birmigham UK) playing an alpha version of a game in the main convention bar one evening. While reminds me I really must try and put some of my ideas for doing a 'Allo 'Allo! / Colditz mash up
jonplackett 6y ago
The good thing about that is you're not expecting too much - the secret to happiness is low expectations. But it's not a great method of doing business!
- xpe 6y ago
  Well, I don't think it is "the" secret, and probably not a "secret" at all. (At least, I hope not.) Regarding happiness, Maslow's model [1] is well-known and makes sense to me. As I understand it, happiness is built on a foundation by satisfying: 1. physiological needs 2. safety needs 3. belongingness & love needs (i.e. connectedness) 4. esteem needs 5. self-actualization Though, per Wikipedia: - "There is little scientific basis to the idea: Maslow himself noted this criticism." - "However, it has been pointed out that, although the ideas behind the hierarchy are Maslow's, the pyramid itself does not exist anywhere in Maslow's original work." And my views: - I question the universality of #5. There are many people who could, technically, accomplish 'more' that are happy doing 'less'. Perhaps #5 would be better explained as "agency" -- the ability to choose a path in life? - That said -- I agree with you -- there is something to be said for expecting 'less'. This idea is compatible with "make the most of what you have". But less relative to what? For example, should one expect to be safe from violence, at least most of the time? - The studies around "good" stress versus "bad" stress come into play too. This is consistent with sayings such as "the bad times help us appreciate the good times" and "we better appreciate the things we work for". - Still, I believe that people, in general, are happier and more developed if they are not unnecessarily constrained. Unpacking this idea probably would requires a discussion of how individuals relate to society as well as normative theory of justice. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs
  - jonplackett 6y ago
    I found this to be a much better explanation and takes into account the weird ways some people seem to be sad when they should be happy vice versa. https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_the_surprising_science_of_happiness/up-next https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_the_surprising_science...

ChrisRR 6y ago

This is the basis of so many products on kickstarter. Either that they have a good novel idea but lack the knowledge of the professionals to make it a polished, (and balanced in the case of games) product, or that they think they have a new idea but they don't realise it's just a bad idea that the industry has avoided for a reason. I don't disagree that there's been some great indie games, but there's been a lot of highly advertised crap too

bovermyer 6y ago

Keep in mind that hobbyists sometimes spend as much, or more, time than professionals at a given craft. I've known people with incredible skill at specific trades, but they had something completely different as their day job.

boogies 6y ago
So true. Microsoft Encarta was never going to out-compete Wikipedia. And Windows Shell is never going to rip out bloat as ruthlessly as dwm, or lay it on as thickly as Compiz, or be as customizable as anything other than GNOME 3+.
svachalek 6y ago
Good point. Einstein is probably the most famous example of this, doing his early work while working in a patent office. Gene Wolfe (Wikipedia: "He was often considered to be not only one of the greatest science fiction authors, but one of the best American writers regardless of genre.") is another, he wrote most of his famous works while working a day job as an engineer and editor.

boogies 6y ago

> But most of the the time it's just *bleep*.¹ In other words, Sturgeon’s revelation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law) ¹(as my browser displays it bc https://greasyfork.org/en/scripts/23624-profanity-filter https://greasyfork.org/en/scripts/23624-profanity-filter)

dalbasal 6y ago

A group of 20 year old musicians wrote a better song than professionally trained composer with 40 years of experience... once.

itronitron 6y ago
or just compare "White Rabbit" to "We Built This City"
- cookie_monsta 6y ago
  I don't think I even have a starting point to make that comparison
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]

vishnugupta 6y ago

Big Macs vs The Naked Chef[1] is somewhat relevant in this context. [1] https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2001/01/18/big-macs-vs-the-naked-chef/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2001/01/18/big-macs-vs-the-na...

PragmaticPulp 6y ago

The mean quality of amateur designs is lower, but the variance is much, much higher. When a creative market reaches a scale where thousands or hundreds of thousands of amateurs can experiment with new designs, the number of outliers surpassing the quality of professional designs is significant. The challenge is finding a high-throughput way to filter those amateur board games. We like to think the best games will rise to the top, but at scale this becomes a popularity contest. Furthermore, the line between amateur and professional blurs quickly when the amateurs start selling their products. Once someone starts a Kickstarter or opens a store to sell their amateur board game, they are effectively professionals. They tend to start behaving as such.

xpe 6y ago
> Furthermore, the line between amateur and professional blurs quickly when the amateurs start selling their products. Once someone starts a Kickstarter or opens a store to sell their amateur board game, they are effectively professionals. They tend to start behaving as such. Yes, in the sense that they have to factor in "professional" responsibilities, such as paying attention to costs; e.g. production and marketing. However, I think when many people say "professional game designer" I think they may (rightly or wrongly) include "seasoned" (i.e. with a track record). Of course, both amateurs and professionals may be seasoned. And both may have passion and dedication to their work.
irrational 6y ago
> We like to think the best games will rise to the top, but at scale this becomes a popularity contest. There are 5,000 new board games released every year (and that isn't even including expansions to previously release games). The challenge is sifting through thousands of new games to pick out the wheat from the chaff. The games from popular designers are much more likely to be successful than from up and comers. I often wonder how many gems among those 5,000 games never get noticed.

ballenf 6y ago

Maybe amateurs can more easily escape local maximas because they don't know the ingrained rules that lead to them.

xpe 6y ago
Yes, perhaps. Also, perhaps expert knowledge of common tendencies can help to avoid local maxima.

andrewon 6y ago

Survivorship bias is also relevant -- what we can find in the market from hobbists got to be the good ones or happened to find niche markets that the professionals overlooked/passed.

tialaramex 6y ago

But I don't have to play most of the games produced this way. So I don't experience the crap. If you make six wildly different board games, five of which are utter trash, and one is genius, I never have to play the five trash games at all. This is the same in a lot of creative fields. Novels, pop music, video games, movies. A handful of professional reviewers might see dozens at a time, but I see a couple based on their recommendations, and maybe I like half of what I see even though Sturgeon's revelation is correct.

phnofive 6y ago

I mean, this is such a generic concept - there are parallels in viral evolution we see in the real world. There is such strong survivorship bias in comparing the top slice of amateurs to all professionals, who of course have different goals.

JKCalhoun 6y ago

Thats okay though. Alexey Pajitnov's "Tetris" was all he ever needed to do, all the world needed. Perhaps though I don't treat games like music where I need a new fix constantly, am happy to find a new game I enjoy every year or so.

JoeAltmaier 6y ago

90% of everything is crap. 90% of the 'consistent' games are also more crap. Idie developers came up win Pandemic, Dominion, Settlers of Catan etc. Novel game mechanics that changed the board game world.