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Another laptop with soldered RAM = built-in planned obsolescence. More consumers need to be made aware of this and everyone should boycott such products. Espec

Another laptop with soldered RAM = built-in planned obsolescence. More consumers need to be made aware of this and everyone should boycott such products. Especially for the price they are paying ($1000+ for this model). If we just give in without protesting about it we are just giving up our rights to repair our devices.

0x737368 6y ago
Shame that you're getting downvoted on HN for such views - most consumers don't care about devices designed to be long-lasting and if the technical population doesn't too then it's totally a lost cause. I've recently purchased a used T530, which was the last model to feature a removable battery, removable CPU, unsoldered RAM, etc etc(for the pedants - yes, later models still had some of these features, but none of them had all of them). It's a fantastic machine that runs everyday tasks without a hitch and with having the option to easily repair it I hope it will last at least another 10 years. The only disadvantage I have compared to the newer T490 model that I use is that it's about 1kg heavier. I think it's reasonable that some consumers would prefer a lighter and thinner machine, even if that includes sacrificing modularity/repairibility, but I doubt those make up the majority and most are just apathetic and willing to go the way of disposable consumerism that corporations are pushing to drive profits further.
- spijdar 6y ago
  I think you and GP are conflating "repairability" with "upgradability". The only two components in a laptop that are essentially guaranteed to fail in a short-ish timeframe are flash storage and the batteries. As long as these two are replaceable, I think a device is reasonably "repairable". While there's a definite chance of the CPU and memory etc. failing, I think for most people the trade-off in size and weight to accommodate sockets aren't worth it from a repairability perspective. That's where I draw my line, anyway. Flash storage and batteries are essentially guaranteed to fail in 5-10 years of use, and absolutely need to be replaceable. As long as the build quality is decent, the rest can be integrated.
  - 0x737368 6y ago
    Whilst I think your argument is valid, I still think lack of "upgradability" correlates with planned obsolescence. All the manufacturer would then need to do is to add a few components that have an expected lifetime just after the warranty time. On the whole, I agree with you that at the very least the battery and RAM should be easily replaceable. I just happen to also think that the increase in weight/bulk is worthwhile tradeoff for the option for me to decide when I want to stop using the machine, not the manufacturer.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      PC was the exception to the norm on the 8 and 16 bit home computers, Apple as survivor of this vertical integration philosophy has showed OEMs where the profit comes from. So naturally OEMs are making laptops as extensible as Atari, Mac, Acorn and Amigas used to be. Want to extend it? Plug an external device, for everything else buy a newer model. This seems to be the future as classical desktops fade away replaced by cloud instances and NUCs.
      - vetinari 6y ago
        Paradoxically to the current topic, NUCs want you to bring your own RAM and disk.
        pjmlp 6y ago
        Not all of them, specially those being used as thin clients.
    - jsmith99 6y ago
      A socketed CPU doesn't add much upgradebility if you have to stay within the same generation. I think a T530 can take a quad core ivy bridge but nothing newer.
      - webmobdev 6y ago
        AMD was really better in this aspect.
tomjen3 6y ago
Please, all laptops have a limit on how much RAM you can put into them, even if they physically can handle more. My old thinkpad maxes out at 8gb, even though I could change the stick to a 16 or 32gb. I don't want to repair my device. I don't want to upgrade my RAM, I want websites, OS and apps not to bloat. There is no reason that Facebook and Twitter don't load instantly and are extremely snappy other than that they can. If you want upgradeable machines, buy a desktop. You gave up most of the upgradeabliity when you brought a laptop.
- Stratoscope 6y ago
  > My old thinkpad maxes out at 8gb, even though I could change the stick to a 16 or 32gb. I don't know what model of ThinkPad you have, but on most of them for at least the last 10 years, if the RAM is the right type it will work. ThinkPads traditionally have had PSREF and datasheets that specify the max RAM based on the modules available when they were released. But generally they will also work with larger memory modules of the same type. They just don't list them because they weren't available for testing at the time. Which ThinkPad model do you have? Perhaps it is one that I or someone else may be familiar with.
  - tomjen3 6y ago
    I was thinking of my X240.
    - Stratoscope 6y ago
      Ah yes, that has a single RAM slot. Crucial only shows an 8GB module for it: https://www.crucial.com/compatible-upgrade-for/lenovo/thinkpad-x240#memory https://www.crucial.com/compatible-upgrade-for/lenovo/thinkp... So I don't know, that may well be the limit. OTOH, if there a larger compatible module from another manufacturer, it wouldn't surprise me if it just worked. Lenovo generally doesn't put arbitrary restrictions on RAM size.
      - d3ckard 6y ago
3np 6y ago
Lenovo's development really is sad - each generation has become less serviceable and maintainable, and increasingly static/locked in. Even if you follow along models with a similar physical footprint as each series has incrementally shrunk over generations (say, compare the 2020 T14 to the t440s). I've had enough Thinkpads that I lost counter over the years but my next laptop will be of another brand. Hopefully I won't need a new one until one of the more open alternatives come with a decent 13-14.5" model with 2k display.
- hr2016 6y ago
  Interesting, which brand would that be? My old Thinkpad is due for replacement soon.
  - 3np 6y ago
    Some Clevo model (eg system76), purism, pine64 for example.
- Al-Khwarizmi 6y ago
  I agree with you, but I'm locked into ThinkPads due to the trackpoint. To me, using a trackpad or having to carry a mouse around when trackpoints exist would be a massive downgrade in comfort and usability, comparable to e.g. not having a battery. Thus, as trackpoint uptake from other brands is almost nonexistent, I'll swallow whatever crappy decision Lenovo comes up with in new laptops. They would have to do something exaggeratedly egregious (no battery? no USB ports? That kind of thing) for me to even consider the competition. It's sad, but as bad as it is that Lenovo makes these changes, to me it's even worse that other brands don't even bother to offer a TrackPoint in at least some of their lineup, considering that it takes negligible space and the inconvenience for people who don't use it is near zero.
  - pmyteh 6y ago
    Work have just given me a new HP Elitebook with a trackpoint, so they're not completely unknown on other makes. Not saying that machine's any good, mind - I haven't had a chance to play with it yet.
tutfbhuf 6y ago
I think lenovo could easily solve this by selling products like the Nano AND selling modern much thicker, heavier fully repairable devices like the T430/T530. Let the customer decide what they prefer.
mtzet 6y ago
It's a trade-off. SMD-soldering takes up way less space, which is important in an ultra-portable. Even if it was upgradeable, it's not clear to me that the CPU/motherboard even supports more than 16GB per memory slot. Adding an additional memory slot would greatly expand the physical requirements. Even in my many years of having desktop PC's, I think I've only once upgraded RAM separately and never upgraded the CPU without replacing the motherboard. If you're talking repairability, than I just haven't had to replace my RAM sticks due to wear.
- martiuk 6y ago
  Do we need to develop a new format and connector for RAM? Where we can get it as low to the motherboard and the sticks of RAM as thin and small as possible?
  - webmobdev 6y ago
    Yes, unless we force them to explore and research new options of upgradable RAM (or other parts) for such form factors (thin or small laptops / tablets), they will never do so. (Perhaps something like SD card reader slots for RAM?).
- NullPrefix 6y ago
  > it's not clear to me that the CPU/motherboard even supports more than 16GB per memory slot These new products are crap, to be honest. Sandy Bridge era ThinkPads accepted 16GB. How long ago was that? Is it 10 years already? Granted, it was total, not per slot. Wasn't officially supported, but it worked. Tried personally, memtest passed, all good. IIRC W520 even took 32GB(4x8GB). Ten years of progress and ... still no progress. Who even buys this crap? >If you're talking repairability, than I just haven't had to replace my RAM sticks due to wear. Somewhat agree with you on this point. Safe to say that if RAM works now, it will keep working. Test it after buying and you should be good. You can't scavenge soldered RAM when the device fails though.
  - forty 6y ago
    Maybe it's just that many people find 16GB is enough for their use cases :) (I actually cannot think of any use cases for an ultra-portable when you would actually need more than that)

0x737368 6y ago

Shame that you're getting downvoted on HN for such views - most consumers don't care about devices designed to be long-lasting and if the technical population doesn't too then it's totally a lost cause. I've recently purchased a used T530, which was the last model to feature a removable battery, removable CPU, unsoldered RAM, etc etc(for the pedants - yes, later models still had some of these features, but none of them had all of them). It's a fantastic machine that runs everyday tasks without a hitch and with having the option to easily repair it I hope it will last at least another 10 years. The only disadvantage I have compared to the newer T490 model that I use is that it's about 1kg heavier. I think it's reasonable that some consumers would prefer a lighter and thinner machine, even if that includes sacrificing modularity/repairibility, but I doubt those make up the majority and most are just apathetic and willing to go the way of disposable consumerism that corporations are pushing to drive profits further.

spijdar 6y ago
I think you and GP are conflating "repairability" with "upgradability". The only two components in a laptop that are essentially guaranteed to fail in a short-ish timeframe are flash storage and the batteries. As long as these two are replaceable, I think a device is reasonably "repairable". While there's a definite chance of the CPU and memory etc. failing, I think for most people the trade-off in size and weight to accommodate sockets aren't worth it from a repairability perspective. That's where I draw my line, anyway. Flash storage and batteries are essentially guaranteed to fail in 5-10 years of use, and absolutely need to be replaceable. As long as the build quality is decent, the rest can be integrated.
- 0x737368 6y ago
  Whilst I think your argument is valid, I still think lack of "upgradability" correlates with planned obsolescence. All the manufacturer would then need to do is to add a few components that have an expected lifetime just after the warranty time. On the whole, I agree with you that at the very least the battery and RAM should be easily replaceable. I just happen to also think that the increase in weight/bulk is worthwhile tradeoff for the option for me to decide when I want to stop using the machine, not the manufacturer.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    PC was the exception to the norm on the 8 and 16 bit home computers, Apple as survivor of this vertical integration philosophy has showed OEMs where the profit comes from. So naturally OEMs are making laptops as extensible as Atari, Mac, Acorn and Amigas used to be. Want to extend it? Plug an external device, for everything else buy a newer model. This seems to be the future as classical desktops fade away replaced by cloud instances and NUCs.
    - vetinari 6y ago
      Paradoxically to the current topic, NUCs want you to bring your own RAM and disk.
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        Not all of them, specially those being used as thin clients.
  - jsmith99 6y ago
    A socketed CPU doesn't add much upgradebility if you have to stay within the same generation. I think a T530 can take a quad core ivy bridge but nothing newer.
    - webmobdev 6y ago
      AMD was really better in this aspect.

tomjen3 6y ago

Please, all laptops have a limit on how much RAM you can put into them, even if they physically can handle more. My old thinkpad maxes out at 8gb, even though I could change the stick to a 16 or 32gb. I don't want to repair my device. I don't want to upgrade my RAM, I want websites, OS and apps not to bloat. There is no reason that Facebook and Twitter don't load instantly and are extremely snappy other than that they can. If you want upgradeable machines, buy a desktop. You gave up most of the upgradeabliity when you brought a laptop.

Stratoscope 6y ago
> My old thinkpad maxes out at 8gb, even though I could change the stick to a 16 or 32gb. I don't know what model of ThinkPad you have, but on most of them for at least the last 10 years, if the RAM is the right type it will work. ThinkPads traditionally have had PSREF and datasheets that specify the max RAM based on the modules available when they were released. But generally they will also work with larger memory modules of the same type. They just don't list them because they weren't available for testing at the time. Which ThinkPad model do you have? Perhaps it is one that I or someone else may be familiar with.
- tomjen3 6y ago
  I was thinking of my X240.
  - Stratoscope 6y ago
    Ah yes, that has a single RAM slot. Crucial only shows an 8GB module for it: https://www.crucial.com/compatible-upgrade-for/lenovo/thinkpad-x240#memory https://www.crucial.com/compatible-upgrade-for/lenovo/thinkp... So I don't know, that may well be the limit. OTOH, if there a larger compatible module from another manufacturer, it wouldn't surprise me if it just worked. Lenovo generally doesn't put arbitrary restrictions on RAM size.
    - d3ckard 6y ago

3np 6y ago

Lenovo's development really is sad - each generation has become less serviceable and maintainable, and increasingly static/locked in. Even if you follow along models with a similar physical footprint as each series has incrementally shrunk over generations (say, compare the 2020 T14 to the t440s). I've had enough Thinkpads that I lost counter over the years but my next laptop will be of another brand. Hopefully I won't need a new one until one of the more open alternatives come with a decent 13-14.5" model with 2k display.

hr2016 6y ago
Interesting, which brand would that be? My old Thinkpad is due for replacement soon.
- 3np 6y ago
  Some Clevo model (eg system76), purism, pine64 for example.
Al-Khwarizmi 6y ago
I agree with you, but I'm locked into ThinkPads due to the trackpoint. To me, using a trackpad or having to carry a mouse around when trackpoints exist would be a massive downgrade in comfort and usability, comparable to e.g. not having a battery. Thus, as trackpoint uptake from other brands is almost nonexistent, I'll swallow whatever crappy decision Lenovo comes up with in new laptops. They would have to do something exaggeratedly egregious (no battery? no USB ports? That kind of thing) for me to even consider the competition. It's sad, but as bad as it is that Lenovo makes these changes, to me it's even worse that other brands don't even bother to offer a TrackPoint in at least some of their lineup, considering that it takes negligible space and the inconvenience for people who don't use it is near zero.
- pmyteh 6y ago
  Work have just given me a new HP Elitebook with a trackpoint, so they're not completely unknown on other makes. Not saying that machine's any good, mind - I haven't had a chance to play with it yet.

tutfbhuf 6y ago

I think lenovo could easily solve this by selling products like the Nano AND selling modern much thicker, heavier fully repairable devices like the T430/T530. Let the customer decide what they prefer.

mtzet 6y ago

It's a trade-off. SMD-soldering takes up way less space, which is important in an ultra-portable. Even if it was upgradeable, it's not clear to me that the CPU/motherboard even supports more than 16GB per memory slot. Adding an additional memory slot would greatly expand the physical requirements. Even in my many years of having desktop PC's, I think I've only once upgraded RAM separately and never upgraded the CPU without replacing the motherboard. If you're talking repairability, than I just haven't had to replace my RAM sticks due to wear.

martiuk 6y ago
Do we need to develop a new format and connector for RAM? Where we can get it as low to the motherboard and the sticks of RAM as thin and small as possible?
- webmobdev 6y ago
  Yes, unless we force them to explore and research new options of upgradable RAM (or other parts) for such form factors (thin or small laptops / tablets), they will never do so. (Perhaps something like SD card reader slots for RAM?).
NullPrefix 6y ago
> it's not clear to me that the CPU/motherboard even supports more than 16GB per memory slot These new products are crap, to be honest. Sandy Bridge era ThinkPads accepted 16GB. How long ago was that? Is it 10 years already? Granted, it was total, not per slot. Wasn't officially supported, but it worked. Tried personally, memtest passed, all good. IIRC W520 even took 32GB(4x8GB). Ten years of progress and ... still no progress. Who even buys this crap? >If you're talking repairability, than I just haven't had to replace my RAM sticks due to wear. Somewhat agree with you on this point. Safe to say that if RAM works now, it will keep working. Test it after buying and you should be good. You can't scavenge soldered RAM when the device fails though.
- forty 6y ago
  Maybe it's just that many people find 16GB is enough for their use cases :) (I actually cannot think of any use cases for an ultra-portable when you would actually need more than that)