5 ms·

I think this is one of the most dangerous lines of thinking, because it is used to (and if not, has the effect of) stifling legitimate criticism of drugs. This

I think this is one of the most dangerous lines of thinking, because it is used to (and if not, has the effect of) stifling legitimate criticism of drugs. This is ESPECIALLY true when the person, like Alex, was approaching the issue in an academic way. If there's a risk that antidepressants worsen the course of depression and have dangerous side effects (suicide being the most prominent), a well-reasoned approach that reviews academic studies is certainly called for. The other problem with this position is that it presumes the correctness of your view. Let's presume the opposite--that for the majority of people the drugs worsen the course of the illness, as per my post before. If this is the case, then your comment is the one that's doing all the harm.

SoftwareMaven 15y ago
When you are extremely ill, you expect your doctor, who has many years of training and experience, to know what the correct treatment regimen is. When you are severely depressed (I'm not talking about "the blues" here!), you are exceedingly unlikely to do the research because you just don't have the energy to do it. So what happens is the depressed person hears comments like that above and, in a situation where doing anything for themselves is almost impossible, thinks, "I should make sure I am an expert on these drugs before I seek treatment", but they never do the research. I'm an exceedingly educated shopper when it comes to medicine, to the point that I've taught my doctor about some medicines, but there are certain times where it is better to just get into the doctor and start moving forward. Antidepressants and psychotropics are inconsistent at vest and require experimentation anyway. Finally, I think it is an extreme, and dangerous, straw man to take the position that, for the majority of people, antidepressants will worsen their condition. These are the kinds of comments I have personally received while sitting at the bottom of a dark hole. All those comments did was make it harder for me to get the help I needed. Severely depressed people are not rational and saying, "you should do all this rational stuff before you get help", is patently harmful.
- Alex3917 15y ago
  "You expect your doctor, who has many years of training and experience, to know what the correct treatment regimen is." Again, there is an entire literature devoted to examining this claim. You don't just get a free pass on claiming this is true when there are hundreds of scientific studies looking at whether or not this is actually the case. "I think it is an extreme, and dangerous, straw man to take the position that, for the majority of people, antidepressants will worsen their condition." Again, it's not an opinion question, there is actual research. "Severely depressed people are not rational and saying, 'you should do all this rational stuff before you get help', is patently harmful." You are defining getting 'help' as abdicating all personal responsibility, and doing something with unknown safety and efficacy. This is completely irresponsible. There may be certain cases where the problem has spiraled out of control to the point where it's unavoidable, but as a general recommendation this is really crappy advice. Yes, depression does make it harder for people to think rationally, and it does sap one's energy. But it's not all black-and-white. Some days are better than other days, and even moderately to severely depressed are still be capable of reading books and using Google most of the time. Otherwise bibliotherapy wouldn't be such a popular treatment.
  - SoftwareMaven 15y ago
    I want you to know that, in general, I agree with you completely, but the rabbit hole goes much deeper and gets much darker. I have been the person there, not able to do anything (barely able to get out of bed) for most of a year. I watched as my job slid away from me and every relationship I had deteriorated and fell apart. I knew drugs were an alternative, but I followed the same thinking you are encouraging. I would do a little research on drugs, find the one post where somebody said the drug didn't work or some side effect was bad or some withdrawal was painful. That was all the research my broken thinking could do, and it ruled out every single drug that might have helped me. I finally threw myself at my doctor's feet because I was close to suicide and I cared just enough about my kids to not want to do that. I had to let somebody whose brain wasn't broken do the thinking for me or it was over. So while I agree people should be informed and drugs shouldn't be a first choice, I strongly object to anybody saying things that get in the way of people who are in the depths of depression I've experienced from getting help, which often does require drugs to break the mental feedback loops that get formed. Conversely, drugs should not be taken without counseling to help retrain negative thought patterns that made it so difficult to get better in the first place.

SoftwareMaven 15y ago

When you are extremely ill, you expect your doctor, who has many years of training and experience, to know what the correct treatment regimen is. When you are severely depressed (I'm not talking about "the blues" here!), you are exceedingly unlikely to do the research because you just don't have the energy to do it. So what happens is the depressed person hears comments like that above and, in a situation where doing anything for themselves is almost impossible, thinks, "I should make sure I am an expert on these drugs before I seek treatment", but they never do the research. I'm an exceedingly educated shopper when it comes to medicine, to the point that I've taught my doctor about some medicines, but there are certain times where it is better to just get into the doctor and start moving forward. Antidepressants and psychotropics are inconsistent at vest and require experimentation anyway. Finally, I think it is an extreme, and dangerous, straw man to take the position that, for the majority of people, antidepressants will worsen their condition. These are the kinds of comments I have personally received while sitting at the bottom of a dark hole. All those comments did was make it harder for me to get the help I needed. Severely depressed people are not rational and saying, "you should do all this rational stuff before you get help", is patently harmful.

Alex3917 15y ago
"You expect your doctor, who has many years of training and experience, to know what the correct treatment regimen is." Again, there is an entire literature devoted to examining this claim. You don't just get a free pass on claiming this is true when there are hundreds of scientific studies looking at whether or not this is actually the case. "I think it is an extreme, and dangerous, straw man to take the position that, for the majority of people, antidepressants will worsen their condition." Again, it's not an opinion question, there is actual research. "Severely depressed people are not rational and saying, 'you should do all this rational stuff before you get help', is patently harmful." You are defining getting 'help' as abdicating all personal responsibility, and doing something with unknown safety and efficacy. This is completely irresponsible. There may be certain cases where the problem has spiraled out of control to the point where it's unavoidable, but as a general recommendation this is really crappy advice. Yes, depression does make it harder for people to think rationally, and it does sap one's energy. But it's not all black-and-white. Some days are better than other days, and even moderately to severely depressed are still be capable of reading books and using Google most of the time. Otherwise bibliotherapy wouldn't be such a popular treatment.
- SoftwareMaven 15y ago
  I want you to know that, in general, I agree with you completely, but the rabbit hole goes much deeper and gets much darker. I have been the person there, not able to do anything (barely able to get out of bed) for most of a year. I watched as my job slid away from me and every relationship I had deteriorated and fell apart. I knew drugs were an alternative, but I followed the same thinking you are encouraging. I would do a little research on drugs, find the one post where somebody said the drug didn't work or some side effect was bad or some withdrawal was painful. That was all the research my broken thinking could do, and it ruled out every single drug that might have helped me. I finally threw myself at my doctor's feet because I was close to suicide and I cared just enough about my kids to not want to do that. I had to let somebody whose brain wasn't broken do the thinking for me or it was over. So while I agree people should be informed and drugs shouldn't be a first choice, I strongly object to anybody saying things that get in the way of people who are in the depths of depression I've experienced from getting help, which often does require drugs to break the mental feedback loops that get formed. Conversely, drugs should not be taken without counseling to help retrain negative thought patterns that made it so difficult to get better in the first place.