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Countless times I've seen users on Hacker News mock DeFi and crypto for recreating the same financial instruments that we already have. I hope today has shown p

Countless times I've seen users on Hacker News mock DeFi and crypto for recreating the same financial instruments that we already have. I hope today has shown people just how much we need to recreate these instruments (and more) in a decentralized open manner.

the_pwner224 6y ago
That's be great. But unfortunately being decentralized and open will not stop the government regulating it. And the government will (unfairly, as shown by the current situation) regulate it if it gets big enough.
- Karunamon 6y ago
  They can make their ruling, now let them enforce it. I don't mean that as some pithy throwaway, I mean that they lack the resource and ability. It is quite possible (and quite easy) to buy and sell crypto without ever getting involved with a KYC privacy invasion. A crypto transaction involves sending a few hundred bytes of data onto a distributed network, and good luck shutting that down. Keep in mind that governments historically have a poor record of preventing people from sending and receiving data they'd prefer you didn't.
  - the_pwner224 6y ago
    > It is quite possible (and quite easy) to buy and sell crypto without ever getting involved with a KYC privacy invasion. And it used to be the same way for bank accounts. Now it isn't, because the government decided that it didn't like that. At some point the crypto needs to be converted into USD - either so you can pay someone who doesn't accept crypto, or so the business who accepted crypto can deposit safe nonvolatile USD into their bank account. And the government will regulate it there at the transfer point. The other option is that a cryptocurrency replaces USD, becoming the new de-facto currency. The government and the people/corporations who are in control of the economy won't allow that to happen. I don't think that last claim needs to be backed up with any more facts/arguments, it is very obviously true.
    - Karunamon 6y ago
      >At some point the crypto needs to be converted into USD It is not a truism that "at some point the crypto needs to be converted". A stablecoin like DAI obviates the "stability" reason for converting back to fiat and getting further involved with the financial system, and as more people accept crypto for goods and services, there exist fewer reasons to convert out. I'm not some BTC maximalist who thinks you'll be buying your groceries in crypto anytime soon, but for anything that can be transacted online, or between friends? We already exist in the timeline where if I want to buy a thing, I can send (with some care) mostly anonymous value to someone to pay for the thing, and there's nothing any government or other person can do to stop it. This isn't some future goal, this is right here, right now.
      - hiq 6y ago
        > as more people accept crypto for goods and services This is not happening. It's been more than a decade now. I could also argue that the reason the few cases where you can actually spend cryptocurrencies have remained is simply that the volume is too small for the authorities to care, especially since they can just start regulating once it matters. You're not addressing OP's point that in the end, you want to spend the currency within the legal system if you want to buy something other than cryptokitties. Or to go back to the main topic, you have to go back into the legal system if you want to buy shares. If the authorities declares that you have to buy your shares with USD, then you have to buy your shares with USD.
  - hiq 6y ago
    But which kind of token are you buying / selling? Anything that represents a real company in the US won't be able to do so outside of the legal framework.
    - Oblouk 6y ago
      Actual shares, no. A crypto bucket shop will show up in the short term, I can guarantee it.
    - kosievdmerwe 6y ago
      There's also "Put your hands where I can see them, you are under arrest for committing illegal financial acts". At the end of the day, the government has sovereignty over your physical body. In addition, at some point your virtual money has to be turned into something physical or else what's the point? And those physical goods can be monitored and irregularities can prompt questions.
  - CobrastanJorji 6y ago
    Governments do have a terrible record at preventing the spread of data. They do, however, have an excellent record at confiscating money.
  - Dirlewanger 6y ago
    Government tells Coinbase to freeze all assets and activity. Welp, there goes crypto being the savior. Yes, I know there's offshore trading platforms, but some like Binance ban US customers for this very reason: government interference.
    - Karunamon 6y ago
      Meanwhile, decentralized platforms exist and sites like localbtc exist where I can just buy and sell from private parties.
- centimeter 6y ago
  They're going to have a much harder time.
- young_unixer 6y ago
  They've been trying to take down dark net markets for 10 years, spending tons of resources and with limited success. I'd call that a success for cryptocurrencies. If a portion of that success can be achieved in normal, everyday transactions, then we would be in a much better world than we are today.
mrlala 6y ago
Maybe we should just stop treating financial instruments like gambling in general? Just saying......
hiq 6y ago
Are you saying that there's some blockchain solution to this problem? Because I don't see it. You will not get shares listed on a decentralized system without some entity vouching for them, which remains legally liable.
- Zamicol 6y ago
  Have you looked at Uniswap?
  - hiq 6y ago
    What prevents it (or its users) from being regulated to death if the authorities wish to do so? For instance how do you ensure that a token representing something in the real world will still represent it when the authorities start looking at it and decide to shut down the entities guaranteeing that you can reclaim an actual share in exchange of an ERC20 token? Or to summarize: which problem does it solve?
Zamicol 6y ago
Exactly. Defi couldn't ask for a better case study than wsb.

the_pwner224 6y ago

That's be great. But unfortunately being decentralized and open will not stop the government regulating it. And the government will (unfairly, as shown by the current situation) regulate it if it gets big enough.

Karunamon 6y ago
They can make their ruling, now let them enforce it. I don't mean that as some pithy throwaway, I mean that they lack the resource and ability. It is quite possible (and quite easy) to buy and sell crypto without ever getting involved with a KYC privacy invasion. A crypto transaction involves sending a few hundred bytes of data onto a distributed network, and good luck shutting that down. Keep in mind that governments historically have a poor record of preventing people from sending and receiving data they'd prefer you didn't.
- the_pwner224 6y ago
  > It is quite possible (and quite easy) to buy and sell crypto without ever getting involved with a KYC privacy invasion. And it used to be the same way for bank accounts. Now it isn't, because the government decided that it didn't like that. At some point the crypto needs to be converted into USD - either so you can pay someone who doesn't accept crypto, or so the business who accepted crypto can deposit safe nonvolatile USD into their bank account. And the government will regulate it there at the transfer point. The other option is that a cryptocurrency replaces USD, becoming the new de-facto currency. The government and the people/corporations who are in control of the economy won't allow that to happen. I don't think that last claim needs to be backed up with any more facts/arguments, it is very obviously true.
  - Karunamon 6y ago
    >At some point the crypto needs to be converted into USD It is not a truism that "at some point the crypto needs to be converted". A stablecoin like DAI obviates the "stability" reason for converting back to fiat and getting further involved with the financial system, and as more people accept crypto for goods and services, there exist fewer reasons to convert out. I'm not some BTC maximalist who thinks you'll be buying your groceries in crypto anytime soon, but for anything that can be transacted online, or between friends? We already exist in the timeline where if I want to buy a thing, I can send (with some care) mostly anonymous value to someone to pay for the thing, and there's nothing any government or other person can do to stop it. This isn't some future goal, this is right here, right now.
    - hiq 6y ago
      > as more people accept crypto for goods and services This is not happening. It's been more than a decade now. I could also argue that the reason the few cases where you can actually spend cryptocurrencies have remained is simply that the volume is too small for the authorities to care, especially since they can just start regulating once it matters. You're not addressing OP's point that in the end, you want to spend the currency within the legal system if you want to buy something other than cryptokitties. Or to go back to the main topic, you have to go back into the legal system if you want to buy shares. If the authorities declares that you have to buy your shares with USD, then you have to buy your shares with USD.
- hiq 6y ago
  But which kind of token are you buying / selling? Anything that represents a real company in the US won't be able to do so outside of the legal framework.
  - Oblouk 6y ago
    Actual shares, no. A crypto bucket shop will show up in the short term, I can guarantee it.
  - kosievdmerwe 6y ago
    There's also "Put your hands where I can see them, you are under arrest for committing illegal financial acts". At the end of the day, the government has sovereignty over your physical body. In addition, at some point your virtual money has to be turned into something physical or else what's the point? And those physical goods can be monitored and irregularities can prompt questions.
- CobrastanJorji 6y ago
  Governments do have a terrible record at preventing the spread of data. They do, however, have an excellent record at confiscating money.
- Dirlewanger 6y ago
  Government tells Coinbase to freeze all assets and activity. Welp, there goes crypto being the savior. Yes, I know there's offshore trading platforms, but some like Binance ban US customers for this very reason: government interference.
  - Karunamon 6y ago
    Meanwhile, decentralized platforms exist and sites like localbtc exist where I can just buy and sell from private parties.
centimeter 6y ago
They're going to have a much harder time.
young_unixer 6y ago
They've been trying to take down dark net markets for 10 years, spending tons of resources and with limited success. I'd call that a success for cryptocurrencies. If a portion of that success can be achieved in normal, everyday transactions, then we would be in a much better world than we are today.

mrlala 6y ago

Maybe we should just stop treating financial instruments like gambling in general? Just saying......

hiq 6y ago

Are you saying that there's some blockchain solution to this problem? Because I don't see it. You will not get shares listed on a decentralized system without some entity vouching for them, which remains legally liable.

Zamicol 6y ago
Have you looked at Uniswap?
- hiq 6y ago
  What prevents it (or its users) from being regulated to death if the authorities wish to do so? For instance how do you ensure that a token representing something in the real world will still represent it when the authorities start looking at it and decide to shut down the entities guaranteeing that you can reclaim an actual share in exchange of an ERC20 token? Or to summarize: which problem does it solve?

Zamicol 6y ago

Exactly. Defi couldn't ask for a better case study than wsb.