9 ms·

Tesla's new steering yoke isn't retro, it's a safety risk

80 points by CPLX 6y ago

josefresco 6y ago
"Many companies have deployed steering racks that offer variable rates, changing based on speed and steering angle. Even at their quickest, though, these racks don't eliminate the need to reposition your hands for common, daily maneuvers. On top of that, most of them have been panned for making cars feel less predictable and, ultimately, less fun to drive." Citation? This sort of hand-waving dismissals of Tesla's innovations are nothing new. While I'm also suspicious of this steering interface I wouldn't write a blog post denouncing it without backing that up with evidence/studies ... hell even anecdotal comments from people who've used them.
- spamizbad 6y ago
  > This sort of hand-waving dismissals of Tesla's innovations Lots of things are innovative about Tesla vehicles but a steering yoke isn't one of them. It's a very old concept car trope, going as far back as the 1950s.
  - josefresco 6y ago
    Cool, so where are the articles, stories and studies from those other failed attempts? My point is they AREN'T in the article - that's all.
    - swirepe 6y ago
      I think the article assumed a base familiarity with the topic. The basic idea behind variable steering ratios is, you space the teeth of your rack and pinion closer together in the middle and further away on the ends. This makes the wheel feel more sensitive in the middle. [1] Here is a car with a square wheel that nobody liked: [2] [1] https://autozine.org/technical_school/traction/Steering_2.html https://autozine.org/technical_school/traction/Steering_2.ht... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_Allegro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_Allegro
  - Retric 6y ago
    It’s likely this is a bad idea, but the interface is only half the equation. We’re looking at form factor not the actual implication. Personally I was expecting their autopilot rollout to be a safety disaster, similarly I assumed forgoing a dashboard would be a huge issue, so having been proven wrong before I am simply reserving judgement.
- stretchcat 6y ago
  So now Tesla is said to be innovating when they adopt old technology invented by others? Truly Tesla is the Apple of cars, getting credit for old shit just because the fanboys know little about the domain outside their favored brand.
  - josefresco 6y ago
    >So now Tesla is said to be innovating when they adopt old technology invented by others? You mean like ... an electric car? Listen to yourself: "Tesla is the Apple of cars" They took something that already existed (electric cars), re-engineered it and created something truly innovative. "No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame."
    - stretchcat 6y ago
      In your eagerness to paint me as a hypocrite, you forgot one important little detail: I never implied Tesla invented electric cars. No clue what that cmdrtaco quote has anything to do with this conversation, but let me be clear here: you're the one giving Telsa credit for things they didn't do, not me.
- avs733 6y ago
  variable rate steering racks absolutely exist - early 2000s BMW 5 series and honda S2000 are the ones off the top of my head. They are not common. Mostly nowadays a similar effect is created via variable assist. Human interface-wise, nonlinear controls are REALLY not a great idea without specific training. If you look at airplanes, where pilots are type rated, you have a lot more controls mixing with electronic flight controls and various regimes. The yoke/stick might control pitch at one point, angle of attack at another, altitude in another, and control surface deflection in another...or more realistically a mix of all of the above. Multiply by 6 dimensions of control. I think about my mother. Recently we rented a Subaru Outback. I was comfortable with the minor force/lane centering control actions it took while on cruise control. She on the other hand couldn't handle it - it became a negative feedback loop. It woudl correct her into the cetner of the lane, and she responded to it as 'the car pulling' and would over react and put us in the next lane. The car correcting itself was disconcerting and provoked a corresponding reaction that was programmed in her brain as 'correct' because the heuristic was 'force through the wheel = something wrong'. The issue here isn't whether the car does something good or bad, it is whether it does something that the average driver reacts to in a safe an appropriate way. That comes from meeting their preconceptions as to how steering behaves, unless Tesla wants to argue for type-certing their owners.
systemvoltage 6y ago
We need to condemn any design that puts aesthetics, minimalism, "look" or "coolness" in front of pragmatism, safety, functionality, practicality, usability and accessibility. This whole problem is actually to do with what the public wants. Designers are delivering exactly what they want. And customers are ruined by conditioning from marketing that "touchscreens are better! who wants those stupid buttons and dials", bean counters are getting their bonuses because they just replaced expensive buttons/dials (with automotive reliability ratings) with a $13 touchscreen a bunch of software to control stuff. So, we're never going to get out of this. The market for utilitarian design is vanishingly small. The public is depressingly gullible and moronic.
- drstewart 6y ago
  I'd love to see what your clothes look like. I assume either none of your clothes has any adaptations for fashion over function OR you're gullible and moronic?
  - harimau777 6y ago
    The issue isn't when you have form and function. The issue is when you have form over function.
  - csours 6y ago
    Please use strong arguments, not ad hominem. > I'd love to see what your clothes look like. I assume either none of your clothes has any adaptations for fashion over function OR you're gullible and moronic? There's a reason why we don't wear ties in manufacturing plants.
    - drstewart 6y ago
      >Please use strong arguments, not ad hominem. You mean like calling people gullible and moronic? >There's a reason why we don't wear ties in manufacturing plants. There's a reason why we don't call everyone who wears ties gullible and moronic. There's a reason we don't condemn ties.
TwoBit 6y ago
"An experiment is worth a thousand opinions" - Wernher Von Braun Until these people actually try this steering wheel they should shut up.
- cpuguy83 6y ago
  Uuuuh, no. Raising safety concerns is important. And it is a safety concern. I had the same exact concern when I saw it just as I had safety concerns about hypothetically owning KITT growing up. It is a concern, it could cost lives, it should be raised.
  - 11thEarlOfMar 6y ago
    I'd have a hard time believing that the first time Tesla considered the safety aspect of this steering wheel was when customers brought it up. It's likely that if they choose to communicate on the matter, they can explain how they went through the analysis and how they mitigated any issues. (no snark need reply, please)
    - AlotOfReading 6y ago
      Someone inside has almost certainly considered it, but that was likely also true when they put beta autonomous software in the hands of untrained consumers on public roads after driving a grand total of 12.2 autonomous miles the previous year. It doesn't seem unfair to question their conclusions regarding safety in light of past actions.
      - 11thEarlOfMar 6y ago
        That does sound irresponsible. I found a Seattle Times article on the matter, and it implies to me that the consumers getting the initial release are limited in number and know they are getting it. It seems likely that the data streams of their cars' utilization will be monitored and also seems likely to me personally that they signed releases allowing Tesla to collect and analyze that data. A quote from Musk in the article [0] reads, "“We’re starting very slow, and very cautiously, because the world is a complex and messy place,” he said. “We’ll see how it goes and probably release it to more people this weekend or early next week and then just gradually step it up until we have hopefully a wide release by the end of this year.”" Words are one thing, actual implementation another, but at least he's publicly acknowledging the precipitous nature of introducing this technology to the public. [0] https://www.seattletimes.com/business/tesla-is-putting-self-driving-in-the-hands-of-drivers-but-critics-ask-if-the-tech-is-ready/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/tesla-is-putting-self-...
moonbug 6y ago
I always liked the Austin Allegro styling.
- buran77 6y ago
  That was a slightly squared steering wheel, allowing all the positions of the hands on it. The one in the article pictures look like they allow a single position of the hands, being basically 2 handles. A sharp turn implies taking one hand off the corresponding handle and crossing it with the other hand to grab the bottom of the yoke. So hand over hand or shuffle steering aren't convenient at all, if even possible, on such a yoke. Finding yourself in an emergency situation grasping at thin air because there's no continuous wheel to grab seems dangerous. P.S. Seems like all the stalks are "touch buttons on the yoke". Which is unfortunate.
S_A_P 6y ago
Or this could simply be a concept car where aesthetics drive design. Then the reality of getting it to follow safety regulations hits and all the cool things that aren’t great for production get revised more mainstream. Just as I suspect the cybertruck will...
cs702 6y ago
Alas, the author has not yet actually driven either vehicle with the new steering yoke. His assessment is mere speculation, based on his past experiences with other, different, less technologically advanced vehicles. For the sake of fairness, we should give Tesla the benefit of the doubt until car reviewers have had a chance to test the new yoke in real-world conditions.
- AlotOfReading 6y ago
  What about safety is fair? Tesla should have to provide evidence that it's as safe as what it's replacing. For comparison, 3 minutes on google turned up a thesis by Chris Post at MIT comparing alternative steering interfaces for "next generation" electric vehicles, including yokes. Apparently they were more difficult to use and had worse performance across almost all metrics, especially braking time. Maybe Tesla's implementation resolves these issues, but they should demonstrate that. [1] http://hdl.handle.net/1721.1/66453 http://hdl.handle.net/1721.1/66453
  - temp667 6y ago
    Tesla should simply have to demonstrate that their whole package is safer than other cars being sold (including mustangs and corvettes with zero visibility, terrible handling etc etc). This idea that you can stick a round wheel in some of these terrible sports cars and hypercars and it makes them safe is the height of stupidity. It's the whole package, traction control, safety cage, crumple zones, emergency braking etc.
    - zlsa 6y ago
      On the other hand, if swapping out a yoke for a steering wheel measurably improves overall safety on an otherwise identical vehicle, is there still an argument for using a yoke instead of a wheel (even if the car with a yoke is already safer than any other car?)
    - thedrbrian 6y ago
      >mustang corvette terrible handling Have you driven either ?
TakuYam 6y ago
It’s basically modelled on a GT/WEC racing wheel with much fewer buttons for distraction. Without knowing actual characteristics about the updated car handling and setup any comments on safety are idle speculation
- kec 6y ago
  Do those vehicles have the same steering rack as a normal street car? I was under the impression the wheels go less than 360 degrees from lock to lock so hand over hand isn't a concern.
- engineer_22 6y ago
  That's right, a lot of assumptions are being made.
sfeng 6y ago
I'm really trying to understand the motivation of this author. Is he betting against Tesla the company? Or just looking for clicks? It's ridiculous to say that the car will be dangerous because a round wheel 'shields' more of your hand in a side impact. It's also silly to imply people won't be able to find the wheel when they need it. He clearly has never so much as sat in the car, muchless conducted a study evaluating the wheel's usefulness, making this just a hit piece.
harimau777 6y ago
Potentially dumb question: How do you do hand over hand or shuffle steering with a partial wheel like this? Edit: Missed that the article mentions that. Apparently the answer is that you can't. So I guess the next question is whether there's a good alternative?
- HarryHirsch 6y ago
  You can't, and that's why it's a safety hazard when turning.
- vulcan01 6y ago
  Elon lives in an ideal world where everyone uses self driving, which includes auto-parking. (The auto-parking doesn't work that well; my friends' parents have repeatedly had to stop their Tesla from hitting adjacent cars, in a Costco parking spot).
gens 6y ago
Having a tablet instead of air-conditioning and radio volume nobs is also a safety risk.
- MengerSponge 6y ago
  Manufacturers use touchscreens to lower BOM costs at the expense of safety. Mazda acknowledged this, and it is why they've gone back to physical controls: https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-purging-touchscreens-from-its-vehicles https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-pur...
- smilekzs 6y ago
  (Source: I've roadtrip'd in a Model S multiple times, and daily drive a 10th gen Honda Civic). The RHS "scroll wheel" on the steering wheel default binds to AC on (press), temp up, temp down. I wish I had buttons that bind to (in the order of importance) DEFROST, and recirculation (on Tesla also the "bio defense mode" which kinda is the proper solution to situations I would need recirculation on my Civic). And of course the LHS one binds to volume although I've always found car volume adjustments to be... differently nonlinear from car to car, but equally annoying! My Civic being pre-facelift only had volume plus minus buttons (both on the steering wheel and on the side of the screen), yet I never felt bothered.
- sschueller 6y ago
  If adjust my GPS while I drive I get a fine, If eat while driving I get a fine but somehow it is OK to operate the model 3 while driving here in Europe. Why did this car get approved to operate on the road?
Hamuko 6y ago
I don't even understand why anyone would want that. The round steering wheel looks good and works nicely. This doesn't look good and I imagine it's going to perform as badly as any of the other F1-style steering wheels do in real life. And why get rid of the stalks? BMW had those annoying turn signal stalks that would always be in the neutral position even if you had the turn signal on. I'm not sure if anyone liked them. I know at least a couple of BMW owners who didn't know how you were supposed to cancel the signal without being explicitly told about it by someone. I think BMW already returned to more sensible turn signal stalks now. I can't fathom at all why you would trade the steering wheel stalk for two buttons on the steering wheel.
- kingnothing 6y ago
  > BMW had those annoying turn signal stalks that would always be in the neutral position even if you had the turn signal on. I'm not sure if anyone liked them. I love them and I was thrilled to discover that the Tesla Model 3 has them when I bought mine.
  - Hamuko 6y ago
    Why? I've never found any upsides in the design and it just makes it harder to know if your signal is on and to cancel it.
    - abenga 6y ago
      The flashing green arrow in your dash and the clicking sound can tell you whether your signal is on or not.
      - Hamuko 6y ago
        One of them requires you to look at your dash and not the road, and the other one is easily drowned out by other sounds. Again, I fail to see the upsides in BMW's (former) design.
    - kingnothing 6y ago
egeozcan 6y ago
Naive question: Could it be that it gets less responsive the faster the car gets?
- Someone 6y ago
  FTA: “Many companies have deployed steering racks that offer variable rates, changing based on speed and steering angle. Even at their quickest, though, these racks don't eliminate the need to reposition your hands for common, daily maneuvers. On top of that, most of them have been panned for making cars feel less predictable and, ultimately, less fun to drive.”
  - lloeki 6y ago
    Except, not. It’s mandatory in EU at least that there’s an uninterrupted physical connection between the steering wheel down to the wheels and the fact that it turns more than 360 degrees means the gearing is fixed -and- linear. What changes though is the power of the electric assist, which decreases as speed goes up, making it harder to turn the wheel, giving eased maneuvering and increased precision + hard to yank at high speed. This doesn’t preclude that steering might be driven automatically, but the wheel will then turn by itself. Which is also why it should be round (or almost so, some have a small flat area at the bottom) as it acts as a guard for any unexpected rotation.
    - Someone 6y ago
      “there’s an uninterrupted physical connection between the steering wheel down to the wheels and the fact that it turns more than 360 degrees means the gearing is fixed -and- linear.” Having that uninterrupted connection would mean that car speed cannot affect how much wheels turn when you turn the steering wheel, but I don’t see how that necessarily follows. Couldn’t a first gear change that “more than 360 degrees” rotation in one that’s a lot smaller, and a second gear introduce a nonlinearity? (Question isn’t about actual cars (I know very little about their steering mechanisms), just about the logic)
      - 6y ago
woofyman 6y ago
I had a stroke and had to add a steering to wheel knob spinner at the 11:00 position in order to drive safely. That looks to be impossible with this design.
- jhayward 6y ago
  People with diminished physical skills are probably not the intended market for a "plaid mode" race-capable car.
fossuser 6y ago
I don't have a strong position on this steering wheel, but the arguments here just seem like bullshit. If steering wheels went from this shape to round you could write a similar article making up similar reasons why the status quo was better.
- Corrado 6y ago
  I think a lot of arguments against "new" things end up like this. I really like my Model Y and don't really have any complaints but it annoys me when people that haven't owned or even driven a Tesla come out of the woodwork saying "That is a terrible design! Why would anyone do that!?". These critics end up sounding like someone just introduced flush toilets and they can't possibly see how that's better: "You mean you have to flush?". Or perhaps Doctors washing their hands between patients: "Who has time for that!? I have people to cure!" I'm not saying that everything Tesla does or is doing is perfect, or even better. But to dismiss it out of hand, without even trying it, is mind-boggling. Case in point, the most recent Tesla 3/Y update changed the on-screen GUI quite a bit and a lot of people got upset over it. Sure there are things that I didn't like about it, at first, but I reasoned that there are a lot of pretty smart people behind it and they probably had a reason for the change. Give it a chance. Tesla has a lot of smart people and there is probably a reason behind this new steering wheel. I'm willing to give it a chance. If it turns out that, in practice, this new design is terrible or dangerous I'll join the chorus of naysayers shouting it down. We'll see.
tinus_hn 6y ago
Doesn’t a car require regulatory approval? If a car is approved with a feature that is a safety risk, the problem is with the rules at least as much as with the car.
- Hamuko 6y ago
  I've read (in connection with Cybetruck's road-legality) that the US doesn't really have that strict regulatory approvals. Don't know for sure as I'm not American nor do I work with car certification. >There is a major difference between the self-certification standards in the United States and Europe's homologation rules. In the US, manufacturers build their cars to be roadworthy and they are checked by agencies on a random basis. In Europe, "50 to 60 regulations must be observed for vehicles," Teller said. How pickup trucks are tested also differs greatly in the US, where most light-duty models are exempt from passive safety and pedestrian protection. https://carbuzz.com/news/tesla-cybertruck-wont-be-legal-in-europe https://carbuzz.com/news/tesla-cybertruck-wont-be-legal-in-e...
moonbug 6y ago
This almost certainly wouldn't meet EU safety guidelines.
m463 6y ago
first, I am a tesla fan, but I was thinking this isn't good. then thinking a bit longer, I thought this WILL kill people. (for completely different reasons that the article writer) The first danger is that steering wheels are used as a grab handle. A steering wheel is used to control the direction of the car. But it is ALSO used unofficially the driver to support himself, sort of a "grab handle". You can say this is a misuse of a steering wheel, but people still do it. (did you know you should grip a motorcycle with your knees and use the handlebars for steernig only? most people don't do that either) The problem here is that depending on where you grab the wheel, it may change the direction of the car. This can sort of happen with a normal wheel, but it is not as pronounced. With the yoke your hand will probably put torque on the wheel. The second reason is bumping. If you bump a normal steering wheel, it doesn't change the direction of the car. With the yoke, for example banging on the top of the wheel except in the exact center will probably change the direction of the car. This also applies underneath, say if you bump it with your leg or body. (I can imagine this going terribly wrong with a car full of kids in a model X) The third reason is the stalks and position. Control stalks are convenient and you can find them with your fingertip. They are in a fixed position, no matter what way you are steering. steering wheel mounted controls do not benefit from the same fixed positioning. Have you ever tried adjusting the volume on a steering wheel control? Now do it when the wheel is tilted. same idea. the fourth reason is stalks and separation. Control stalks are also "shrouded/protected" by the wheel. They are behind the wheel and protected from most accidental input. If you've accidentally beeped your horn, that's sort of the idea. It's harder to accidentally turn on your turn signal by accident (even though it can happen). It seems like the turn signals on the front of the wheel next to the control wheel might suffer from that. And just personal preference not related to safety: I liked the model S control wheels - they seemed to be pretty good ergonomically. I hated the model 3 control wheels - they felt like a $5 mouse and did not have the right feel. honestly, I think the wheel should be an option. and I am glad the dashboard still exists.
jonshariat 6y ago
I've read the article twice now, where does it mention the safety risk?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
tcskeptic 6y ago
With the curve extending across the top this looks quite different from the Kitt wheel, and as such quite different from an airplane yoke. I suspect this works much more like a wheel than a yoke in practice, but I would be interested in trying it out.
loceng 6y ago
Is it optional?
nunez 6y ago
I cannot wait until “how did I drive with circular steering wheels and stalks” becomes commonplace in five years.

80 points by CPLX 6y ago

"Many companies have deployed steering racks that offer variable rates, changing based on speed and steering angle. Even at their quickest, though, these racks don't eliminate the need to reposition your hands for common, daily maneuvers. On top of that, most of them have been panned for making cars feel less predictable and, ultimately, less fun to drive." Citation? This sort of hand-waving dismissals of Tesla's innovations are nothing new. While I'm also suspicious of this steering interface I wouldn't write a blog post denouncing it without backing that up with evidence/studies ... hell even anecdotal comments from people who've used them.

spamizbad 6y ago
> This sort of hand-waving dismissals of Tesla's innovations Lots of things are innovative about Tesla vehicles but a steering yoke isn't one of them. It's a very old concept car trope, going as far back as the 1950s.
- josefresco 6y ago
  Cool, so where are the articles, stories and studies from those other failed attempts? My point is they AREN'T in the article - that's all.
  - swirepe 6y ago
    I think the article assumed a base familiarity with the topic. The basic idea behind variable steering ratios is, you space the teeth of your rack and pinion closer together in the middle and further away on the ends. This makes the wheel feel more sensitive in the middle. [1] Here is a car with a square wheel that nobody liked: [2] [1] https://autozine.org/technical_school/traction/Steering_2.html https://autozine.org/technical_school/traction/Steering_2.ht... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_Allegro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_Allegro
- Retric 6y ago
  It’s likely this is a bad idea, but the interface is only half the equation. We’re looking at form factor not the actual implication. Personally I was expecting their autopilot rollout to be a safety disaster, similarly I assumed forgoing a dashboard would be a huge issue, so having been proven wrong before I am simply reserving judgement.
stretchcat 6y ago
So now Tesla is said to be innovating when they adopt old technology invented by others? Truly Tesla is the Apple of cars, getting credit for old shit just because the fanboys know little about the domain outside their favored brand.
- josefresco 6y ago
  >So now Tesla is said to be innovating when they adopt old technology invented by others? You mean like ... an electric car? Listen to yourself: "Tesla is the Apple of cars" They took something that already existed (electric cars), re-engineered it and created something truly innovative. "No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame."
  - stretchcat 6y ago
    In your eagerness to paint me as a hypocrite, you forgot one important little detail: I never implied Tesla invented electric cars. No clue what that cmdrtaco quote has anything to do with this conversation, but let me be clear here: you're the one giving Telsa credit for things they didn't do, not me.
avs733 6y ago
variable rate steering racks absolutely exist - early 2000s BMW 5 series and honda S2000 are the ones off the top of my head. They are not common. Mostly nowadays a similar effect is created via variable assist. Human interface-wise, nonlinear controls are REALLY not a great idea without specific training. If you look at airplanes, where pilots are type rated, you have a lot more controls mixing with electronic flight controls and various regimes. The yoke/stick might control pitch at one point, angle of attack at another, altitude in another, and control surface deflection in another...or more realistically a mix of all of the above. Multiply by 6 dimensions of control. I think about my mother. Recently we rented a Subaru Outback. I was comfortable with the minor force/lane centering control actions it took while on cruise control. She on the other hand couldn't handle it - it became a negative feedback loop. It woudl correct her into the cetner of the lane, and she responded to it as 'the car pulling' and would over react and put us in the next lane. The car correcting itself was disconcerting and provoked a corresponding reaction that was programmed in her brain as 'correct' because the heuristic was 'force through the wheel = something wrong'. The issue here isn't whether the car does something good or bad, it is whether it does something that the average driver reacts to in a safe an appropriate way. That comes from meeting their preconceptions as to how steering behaves, unless Tesla wants to argue for type-certing their owners.

systemvoltage 6y ago

We need to condemn any design that puts aesthetics, minimalism, "look" or "coolness" in front of pragmatism, safety, functionality, practicality, usability and accessibility. This whole problem is actually to do with what the public wants. Designers are delivering exactly what they want. And customers are ruined by conditioning from marketing that "touchscreens are better! who wants those stupid buttons and dials", bean counters are getting their bonuses because they just replaced expensive buttons/dials (with automotive reliability ratings) with a $13 touchscreen a bunch of software to control stuff. So, we're never going to get out of this. The market for utilitarian design is vanishingly small. The public is depressingly gullible and moronic.

drstewart 6y ago
I'd love to see what your clothes look like. I assume either none of your clothes has any adaptations for fashion over function OR you're gullible and moronic?
- harimau777 6y ago
  The issue isn't when you have form and function. The issue is when you have form over function.
- csours 6y ago
  Please use strong arguments, not ad hominem. > I'd love to see what your clothes look like. I assume either none of your clothes has any adaptations for fashion over function OR you're gullible and moronic? There's a reason why we don't wear ties in manufacturing plants.
  - drstewart 6y ago
    >Please use strong arguments, not ad hominem. You mean like calling people gullible and moronic? >There's a reason why we don't wear ties in manufacturing plants. There's a reason why we don't call everyone who wears ties gullible and moronic. There's a reason we don't condemn ties.

TwoBit 6y ago

"An experiment is worth a thousand opinions" - Wernher Von Braun Until these people actually try this steering wheel they should shut up.

cpuguy83 6y ago
Uuuuh, no. Raising safety concerns is important. And it is a safety concern. I had the same exact concern when I saw it just as I had safety concerns about hypothetically owning KITT growing up. It is a concern, it could cost lives, it should be raised.
- 11thEarlOfMar 6y ago
  I'd have a hard time believing that the first time Tesla considered the safety aspect of this steering wheel was when customers brought it up. It's likely that if they choose to communicate on the matter, they can explain how they went through the analysis and how they mitigated any issues. (no snark need reply, please)
  - AlotOfReading 6y ago
    Someone inside has almost certainly considered it, but that was likely also true when they put beta autonomous software in the hands of untrained consumers on public roads after driving a grand total of 12.2 autonomous miles the previous year. It doesn't seem unfair to question their conclusions regarding safety in light of past actions.
    - 11thEarlOfMar 6y ago
      That does sound irresponsible. I found a Seattle Times article on the matter, and it implies to me that the consumers getting the initial release are limited in number and know they are getting it. It seems likely that the data streams of their cars' utilization will be monitored and also seems likely to me personally that they signed releases allowing Tesla to collect and analyze that data. A quote from Musk in the article [0] reads, "“We’re starting very slow, and very cautiously, because the world is a complex and messy place,” he said. “We’ll see how it goes and probably release it to more people this weekend or early next week and then just gradually step it up until we have hopefully a wide release by the end of this year.”" Words are one thing, actual implementation another, but at least he's publicly acknowledging the precipitous nature of introducing this technology to the public. [0] https://www.seattletimes.com/business/tesla-is-putting-self-driving-in-the-hands-of-drivers-but-critics-ask-if-the-tech-is-ready/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/tesla-is-putting-self-...

moonbug 6y ago

I always liked the Austin Allegro styling.

buran77 6y ago
That was a slightly squared steering wheel, allowing all the positions of the hands on it. The one in the article pictures look like they allow a single position of the hands, being basically 2 handles. A sharp turn implies taking one hand off the corresponding handle and crossing it with the other hand to grab the bottom of the yoke. So hand over hand or shuffle steering aren't convenient at all, if even possible, on such a yoke. Finding yourself in an emergency situation grasping at thin air because there's no continuous wheel to grab seems dangerous. P.S. Seems like all the stalks are "touch buttons on the yoke". Which is unfortunate.

S_A_P 6y ago

Or this could simply be a concept car where aesthetics drive design. Then the reality of getting it to follow safety regulations hits and all the cool things that aren’t great for production get revised more mainstream. Just as I suspect the cybertruck will...

cs702 6y ago

Alas, the author has not yet actually driven either vehicle with the new steering yoke. His assessment is mere speculation, based on his past experiences with other, different, less technologically advanced vehicles. For the sake of fairness, we should give Tesla the benefit of the doubt until car reviewers have had a chance to test the new yoke in real-world conditions.

AlotOfReading 6y ago
What about safety is fair? Tesla should have to provide evidence that it's as safe as what it's replacing. For comparison, 3 minutes on google turned up a thesis by Chris Post at MIT comparing alternative steering interfaces for "next generation" electric vehicles, including yokes. Apparently they were more difficult to use and had worse performance across almost all metrics, especially braking time. Maybe Tesla's implementation resolves these issues, but they should demonstrate that. [1] http://hdl.handle.net/1721.1/66453 http://hdl.handle.net/1721.1/66453
- temp667 6y ago
  Tesla should simply have to demonstrate that their whole package is safer than other cars being sold (including mustangs and corvettes with zero visibility, terrible handling etc etc). This idea that you can stick a round wheel in some of these terrible sports cars and hypercars and it makes them safe is the height of stupidity. It's the whole package, traction control, safety cage, crumple zones, emergency braking etc.
  - zlsa 6y ago
    On the other hand, if swapping out a yoke for a steering wheel measurably improves overall safety on an otherwise identical vehicle, is there still an argument for using a yoke instead of a wheel (even if the car with a yoke is already safer than any other car?)
  - thedrbrian 6y ago
    >mustang corvette terrible handling Have you driven either ?

TakuYam 6y ago

It’s basically modelled on a GT/WEC racing wheel with much fewer buttons for distraction. Without knowing actual characteristics about the updated car handling and setup any comments on safety are idle speculation

kec 6y ago
Do those vehicles have the same steering rack as a normal street car? I was under the impression the wheels go less than 360 degrees from lock to lock so hand over hand isn't a concern.
engineer_22 6y ago
That's right, a lot of assumptions are being made.

sfeng 6y ago

I'm really trying to understand the motivation of this author. Is he betting against Tesla the company? Or just looking for clicks? It's ridiculous to say that the car will be dangerous because a round wheel 'shields' more of your hand in a side impact. It's also silly to imply people won't be able to find the wheel when they need it. He clearly has never so much as sat in the car, muchless conducted a study evaluating the wheel's usefulness, making this just a hit piece.

harimau777 6y ago

Potentially dumb question: How do you do hand over hand or shuffle steering with a partial wheel like this? Edit: Missed that the article mentions that. Apparently the answer is that you can't. So I guess the next question is whether there's a good alternative?

HarryHirsch 6y ago
You can't, and that's why it's a safety hazard when turning.
vulcan01 6y ago
Elon lives in an ideal world where everyone uses self driving, which includes auto-parking. (The auto-parking doesn't work that well; my friends' parents have repeatedly had to stop their Tesla from hitting adjacent cars, in a Costco parking spot).

gens 6y ago

Having a tablet instead of air-conditioning and radio volume nobs is also a safety risk.

MengerSponge 6y ago
Manufacturers use touchscreens to lower BOM costs at the expense of safety. Mazda acknowledged this, and it is why they've gone back to physical controls: https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-purging-touchscreens-from-its-vehicles https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-pur...
smilekzs 6y ago
(Source: I've roadtrip'd in a Model S multiple times, and daily drive a 10th gen Honda Civic). The RHS "scroll wheel" on the steering wheel default binds to AC on (press), temp up, temp down. I wish I had buttons that bind to (in the order of importance) DEFROST, and recirculation (on Tesla also the "bio defense mode" which kinda is the proper solution to situations I would need recirculation on my Civic). And of course the LHS one binds to volume although I've always found car volume adjustments to be... differently nonlinear from car to car, but equally annoying! My Civic being pre-facelift only had volume plus minus buttons (both on the steering wheel and on the side of the screen), yet I never felt bothered.
sschueller 6y ago
If adjust my GPS while I drive I get a fine, If eat while driving I get a fine but somehow it is OK to operate the model 3 while driving here in Europe. Why did this car get approved to operate on the road?

Hamuko 6y ago

I don't even understand why anyone would want that. The round steering wheel looks good and works nicely. This doesn't look good and I imagine it's going to perform as badly as any of the other F1-style steering wheels do in real life. And why get rid of the stalks? BMW had those annoying turn signal stalks that would always be in the neutral position even if you had the turn signal on. I'm not sure if anyone liked them. I know at least a couple of BMW owners who didn't know how you were supposed to cancel the signal without being explicitly told about it by someone. I think BMW already returned to more sensible turn signal stalks now. I can't fathom at all why you would trade the steering wheel stalk for two buttons on the steering wheel.

kingnothing 6y ago
> BMW had those annoying turn signal stalks that would always be in the neutral position even if you had the turn signal on. I'm not sure if anyone liked them. I love them and I was thrilled to discover that the Tesla Model 3 has them when I bought mine.
- Hamuko 6y ago
  Why? I've never found any upsides in the design and it just makes it harder to know if your signal is on and to cancel it.
  - abenga 6y ago
    The flashing green arrow in your dash and the clicking sound can tell you whether your signal is on or not.
    - Hamuko 6y ago
      One of them requires you to look at your dash and not the road, and the other one is easily drowned out by other sounds. Again, I fail to see the upsides in BMW's (former) design.
  - kingnothing 6y ago

egeozcan 6y ago

Naive question: Could it be that it gets less responsive the faster the car gets?

Someone 6y ago
FTA: “Many companies have deployed steering racks that offer variable rates, changing based on speed and steering angle. Even at their quickest, though, these racks don't eliminate the need to reposition your hands for common, daily maneuvers. On top of that, most of them have been panned for making cars feel less predictable and, ultimately, less fun to drive.”
- lloeki 6y ago
  Except, not. It’s mandatory in EU at least that there’s an uninterrupted physical connection between the steering wheel down to the wheels and the fact that it turns more than 360 degrees means the gearing is fixed -and- linear. What changes though is the power of the electric assist, which decreases as speed goes up, making it harder to turn the wheel, giving eased maneuvering and increased precision + hard to yank at high speed. This doesn’t preclude that steering might be driven automatically, but the wheel will then turn by itself. Which is also why it should be round (or almost so, some have a small flat area at the bottom) as it acts as a guard for any unexpected rotation.
  - Someone 6y ago
    “there’s an uninterrupted physical connection between the steering wheel down to the wheels and the fact that it turns more than 360 degrees means the gearing is fixed -and- linear.” Having that uninterrupted connection would mean that car speed cannot affect how much wheels turn when you turn the steering wheel, but I don’t see how that necessarily follows. Couldn’t a first gear change that “more than 360 degrees” rotation in one that’s a lot smaller, and a second gear introduce a nonlinearity? (Question isn’t about actual cars (I know very little about their steering mechanisms), just about the logic)
    - 6y ago

woofyman 6y ago

I had a stroke and had to add a steering to wheel knob spinner at the 11:00 position in order to drive safely. That looks to be impossible with this design.

jhayward 6y ago
People with diminished physical skills are probably not the intended market for a "plaid mode" race-capable car.

fossuser 6y ago

I don't have a strong position on this steering wheel, but the arguments here just seem like bullshit. If steering wheels went from this shape to round you could write a similar article making up similar reasons why the status quo was better.

Corrado 6y ago
I think a lot of arguments against "new" things end up like this. I really like my Model Y and don't really have any complaints but it annoys me when people that haven't owned or even driven a Tesla come out of the woodwork saying "That is a terrible design! Why would anyone do that!?". These critics end up sounding like someone just introduced flush toilets and they can't possibly see how that's better: "You mean you have to flush?". Or perhaps Doctors washing their hands between patients: "Who has time for that!? I have people to cure!" I'm not saying that everything Tesla does or is doing is perfect, or even better. But to dismiss it out of hand, without even trying it, is mind-boggling. Case in point, the most recent Tesla 3/Y update changed the on-screen GUI quite a bit and a lot of people got upset over it. Sure there are things that I didn't like about it, at first, but I reasoned that there are a lot of pretty smart people behind it and they probably had a reason for the change. Give it a chance. Tesla has a lot of smart people and there is probably a reason behind this new steering wheel. I'm willing to give it a chance. If it turns out that, in practice, this new design is terrible or dangerous I'll join the chorus of naysayers shouting it down. We'll see.

tinus_hn 6y ago

Doesn’t a car require regulatory approval? If a car is approved with a feature that is a safety risk, the problem is with the rules at least as much as with the car.

Hamuko 6y ago
I've read (in connection with Cybetruck's road-legality) that the US doesn't really have that strict regulatory approvals. Don't know for sure as I'm not American nor do I work with car certification. >There is a major difference between the self-certification standards in the United States and Europe's homologation rules. In the US, manufacturers build their cars to be roadworthy and they are checked by agencies on a random basis. In Europe, "50 to 60 regulations must be observed for vehicles," Teller said. How pickup trucks are tested also differs greatly in the US, where most light-duty models are exempt from passive safety and pedestrian protection. https://carbuzz.com/news/tesla-cybertruck-wont-be-legal-in-europe https://carbuzz.com/news/tesla-cybertruck-wont-be-legal-in-e...

moonbug 6y ago

This almost certainly wouldn't meet EU safety guidelines.

m463 6y ago

first, I am a tesla fan, but I was thinking this isn't good. then thinking a bit longer, I thought this WILL kill people. (for completely different reasons that the article writer) The first danger is that steering wheels are used as a grab handle. A steering wheel is used to control the direction of the car. But it is ALSO used unofficially the driver to support himself, sort of a "grab handle". You can say this is a misuse of a steering wheel, but people still do it. (did you know you should grip a motorcycle with your knees and use the handlebars for steernig only? most people don't do that either) The problem here is that depending on where you grab the wheel, it may change the direction of the car. This can sort of happen with a normal wheel, but it is not as pronounced. With the yoke your hand will probably put torque on the wheel. The second reason is bumping. If you bump a normal steering wheel, it doesn't change the direction of the car. With the yoke, for example banging on the top of the wheel except in the exact center will probably change the direction of the car. This also applies underneath, say if you bump it with your leg or body. (I can imagine this going terribly wrong with a car full of kids in a model X) The third reason is the stalks and position. Control stalks are convenient and you can find them with your fingertip. They are in a fixed position, no matter what way you are steering. steering wheel mounted controls do not benefit from the same fixed positioning. Have you ever tried adjusting the volume on a steering wheel control? Now do it when the wheel is tilted. same idea. the fourth reason is stalks and separation. Control stalks are also "shrouded/protected" by the wheel. They are behind the wheel and protected from most accidental input. If you've accidentally beeped your horn, that's sort of the idea. It's harder to accidentally turn on your turn signal by accident (even though it can happen). It seems like the turn signals on the front of the wheel next to the control wheel might suffer from that. And just personal preference not related to safety: I liked the model S control wheels - they seemed to be pretty good ergonomically. I hated the model 3 control wheels - they felt like a $5 mouse and did not have the right feel. honestly, I think the wheel should be an option. and I am glad the dashboard still exists.

jonshariat 6y ago

I've read the article twice now, where does it mention the safety risk?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

tcskeptic 6y ago

With the curve extending across the top this looks quite different from the Kitt wheel, and as such quite different from an airplane yoke. I suspect this works much more like a wheel than a yoke in practice, but I would be interested in trying it out.

loceng 6y ago

Is it optional?

nunez 6y ago

I cannot wait until “how did I drive with circular steering wheels and stalks” becomes commonplace in five years.