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> This is a resolution to ban encryption. Plain and simple. Yes I do know that this is your viewpoint - thank you for repeating it. But, as I also repeatedly s

> This is a resolution to ban encryption. Plain and simple. Yes I do know that this is your viewpoint - thank you for repeating it. But, as I also repeatedly said, I have a hard time seeing it because, well, the resolution does in fact not explicitly ban (E2E) encryption. So can you please help convince me and fellow ignorami by providing a link or two? Is there maybe a statement by a council member? A proposal for the type of backdoor/encryption type the council would like to see implemented? I think something like that would really move the discussion forward.

heimatau 6y ago
>I have a hard time seeing it because, well, the resolution does in fact not explicitly ban (E2E) encryption. If you need the actions of the government to be explicit then you'd have a difficult time to prove any case. Let's turn this back towards you, based on the evidence of previous actions by the government of the EU (and EU), how can you claim anything prevents this malicious behavior? Nothing explicitly prevents these abuses. This is an intentional design. Does the right to E2E exist in this resolution? It doesn't, so please don't assume they won't use a roundabout way to remove this human right. Please don't ignore abuses of governmental power, they weld their power with little recourse. Let's not be quick to encourage their poor legislation.
- prof-dr-ir 6y ago
  You seem to have upgraded the claim that "banning encryption is implicit in the resolution" for a far broader claim that I can probably summarize as "assume malice". But yet again, all I find to support the latter claim are sweeping statements without evidence. Can you provide me with examples of EU law that you consider abuses of power and that remove human rights? (Also, the "EU government" does not exist, so with "governmental power" you maybe mean the power of the Commission?)
  - heimatau 6y ago
    > Can you provide me with examples of EU law that you consider abuses of power and that remove human rights? Their previous attempts to making encryption illegal. I believe encryption is a fundamental human right. You never answered my question. You seem bogged down on my characterization. Let me ask again without the characterization. What EU laws ensure the human right to encryption?
    - DanBC 6y ago
      > What EU laws ensure the human right to encryption? Article 7 of the Charter of fundamental rights of the European Union: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:12012P/TXT https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:12... > Article 7 > Respect for private and family life > Everyone has the right to respect for his or her private and family life, home and communications. See also ECHR Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms article 8 https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Convention_ENG.pdf https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Convention_ENG.pdf > ARTICLE 8 > Right to respect for private and family life1. > Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
      - heimatau 6y ago
        I appreciate your citations. What court cases prove your interpretation of the law? That's the rub.
    - prof-dr-ir 6y ago
      I can answer your question: unlike the great sibling comment, let me state that I do (or did) not know of such laws. But now what? Have you proved the point that I need to "assume malice"? Or have you now successfully argued for the narrower claim, that the resolution is indeed a proposed ban on encryption? I am very sorry but I really do not believe you have - which was, of course, the reason that I ignored your question in the first place.
mamon 6y ago
The full text of the proposed resolution is here: https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-13084-2020-REV-1/en/pdf https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-13084-2020-... Relevant part: "Competent authorities must be able to access data in a lawful and targeted manner,in full respect of fundamental rights and the relevant data protection laws, while upholding cybersecurity. Technical solutions for gaining access to encrypted data must comply with the principles of legality, transparency, necessity and proportionality including protection of personal data by design and by default." So, what they are saying here is: encryption is allowed but it has to be weak or backdoored. They want "Technical solutions for gaining access to encrypted data". They do want to ban strong encryption (which is the only kind of encryption worthy of the name).

heimatau 6y ago

>I have a hard time seeing it because, well, the resolution does in fact not explicitly ban (E2E) encryption. If you need the actions of the government to be explicit then you'd have a difficult time to prove any case. Let's turn this back towards you, based on the evidence of previous actions by the government of the EU (and EU), how can you claim anything prevents this malicious behavior? Nothing explicitly prevents these abuses. This is an intentional design. Does the right to E2E exist in this resolution? It doesn't, so please don't assume they won't use a roundabout way to remove this human right. Please don't ignore abuses of governmental power, they weld their power with little recourse. Let's not be quick to encourage their poor legislation.

prof-dr-ir 6y ago
You seem to have upgraded the claim that "banning encryption is implicit in the resolution" for a far broader claim that I can probably summarize as "assume malice". But yet again, all I find to support the latter claim are sweeping statements without evidence. Can you provide me with examples of EU law that you consider abuses of power and that remove human rights? (Also, the "EU government" does not exist, so with "governmental power" you maybe mean the power of the Commission?)
- heimatau 6y ago
  > Can you provide me with examples of EU law that you consider abuses of power and that remove human rights? Their previous attempts to making encryption illegal. I believe encryption is a fundamental human right. You never answered my question. You seem bogged down on my characterization. Let me ask again without the characterization. What EU laws ensure the human right to encryption?
  - DanBC 6y ago
    > What EU laws ensure the human right to encryption? Article 7 of the Charter of fundamental rights of the European Union: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:12012P/TXT https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:12... > Article 7 > Respect for private and family life > Everyone has the right to respect for his or her private and family life, home and communications. See also ECHR Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms article 8 https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Convention_ENG.pdf https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Convention_ENG.pdf > ARTICLE 8 > Right to respect for private and family life1. > Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
    - heimatau 6y ago
      I appreciate your citations. What court cases prove your interpretation of the law? That's the rub.
  - prof-dr-ir 6y ago
    I can answer your question: unlike the great sibling comment, let me state that I do (or did) not know of such laws. But now what? Have you proved the point that I need to "assume malice"? Or have you now successfully argued for the narrower claim, that the resolution is indeed a proposed ban on encryption? I am very sorry but I really do not believe you have - which was, of course, the reason that I ignored your question in the first place.

mamon 6y ago

The full text of the proposed resolution is here: https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-13084-2020-REV-1/en/pdf https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-13084-2020-... Relevant part: "Competent authorities must be able to access data in a lawful and targeted manner,in full respect of fundamental rights and the relevant data protection laws, while upholding cybersecurity. Technical solutions for gaining access to encrypted data must comply with the principles of legality, transparency, necessity and proportionality including protection of personal data by design and by default." So, what they are saying here is: encryption is allowed but it has to be weak or backdoored. They want "Technical solutions for gaining access to encrypted data". They do want to ban strong encryption (which is the only kind of encryption worthy of the name).