13 ms·

Depression, Burn Out and Writing Code

380 points by muddylemon 15y ago

billjings 15y ago
Stay active. Do something cardio intensive, and a lot of it.
- Yxven 15y ago
  biljings is right. Exercise is the most effective medicine for mild to moderate depression. It should be the first thing you do when you start to feel gloomy.
- ccarpenterg 15y ago
  I second you. Mens sana in corpore sano http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_sana_in_corpore_sano http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_sana_in_corpore_sano
- singular 15y ago
  Though I agree this is a good idea, I've had the experience of doing a lot of cardio exercise and having it not improve things, which was crushing given I had assumed it would make a big difference. In the end I crashed out of training after several months and have found it hard to re-engage ever since. So definitely do it, but don't have expectations going in other than you'll get that nice runner's high [1]. Deep depression is unfortunately a horrible bastard which doesn't allow you even the relief of things which are reliably great for the mild variety, and simply requires other people to help you. So if you find it doesn't shift, go out and get help. That's the hardest thing I have found from my own experience. [1]:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runner%27s_high#Runner.27s_high http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runner%27s_high#Runner.27s_high
  - ams6110 15y ago
    While I feel that cardio activity helps clear my head, I've never felt a "high" from it. What it does is makes me sleepy. After a run the thing I want to do most is take a nap. So I'm not sure everyone can even expect a "high" from exercise.
    - singular 15y ago
      Hm, well after reading the wikipedia article (link in my parent post) actually I am not sure as to whether it's been demonstrated scientifically that it is always there, so perhaps then one should go into it with no expectations whatsoever :) - but don't get me wrong on this, I do think it's great advice, and for the majority of people it'll do wonders. Just be careful not to place too many expectations on it.
  - billjings 15y ago
    You're right about deep depression being serious business, and I agree with you completely on the importance of grabbing hold of some social support. If I might, though... here's a little bit more on cardiovascular exercise as it relates to garden variety depression and motivation. At some point a couple of years back, I read some research on insulin sensitivity and glucose tolerance that led me to believe that they are related to some problems with depression and attention deficit. The natural conclusion from the research was that 1) regular aerobic exercise would help out a lot by improving glucose tolerance, and 2) improvements or impairments in insulin resistance/glucose tolerance would accumulate over time. That implies that intensive cardio may be beneficial, but it's not a magic bullet. It's not as important as making regular aerobic exercise a lifelong habit. So it has to be something you do even if you don't have a particular goal in mind on any one day. To that end: whatever you do for exercise, enjoy it. Don't feel like you have to run yourself into the ground. Plant the habit and help it grow. Oh, and also - for similar reasons, easing up on simple sugars and white bread is a good idea, too.
  - zasz 15y ago
    Yup, same here. I exercise quite a bit. I get antsy if I don't do it, but it's never stopped me from feeling terrible about life.
- jlees 15y ago
  I agree, though I would add "outside" here. Running or biking outside makes me feel awesome, running on a treadmill makes me feel even more that life is futile. I know we don't always have the choice or ability to do this, but it's great when you can.
- clark-kent 15y ago
  To expand on this, I would say, get physically fit. The process of getting fit, changing your diet and working out, will keep your mind off the depression. It will give you more strength and energy. You will end up feeling better. Cardio activities also involves small challenges and small wins everyday. This will give you a sense of accomplishment. Its a huge morale boost. But you have to be consistent with the Cardio, and make it part of your lifestyle to rip the benefits.
Wickk 15y ago
>Drugs don’t have to be the only tool you use, but they can get you to a place where you’re healthy enough to think clearly about alternatives. This bears more emphasis. I was on medication for a very long while and whenever someone asks me how I got to where I am now, I'll jokingly say a very lengthy and close relationship with various different anti-depressants. Of course this ruffles feather in people in all the wrong ways, but its the truth. Anti depressants and psychotropics aren't going to magically cure you, but they are going to help you get to that place where you can figure out what's wrong and work towards getting better.
Alex3917 15y ago
"I always hear people beg off trying medication for mental health because they 'don't want to rely on a drug for the rest of their life.' I never hear that statement when someone is talking about blood pressure medication or cholesterol pills." Then I take it you haven't been paying any attention to the news this past week.[1] There are literally thousands of academic studies on depression. Is it really too much to ask that people learn something about the major findings in the field before giving others advice? Sorry, but it's extremely irresponsible to start taking drugs (or recommending them to others) without reading up on the academic research on what they do, whether we're talking about smoking crack or taking something your doctor prescribed. [1] http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/jan-june11/cholesterol_05-27.html http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/jan-june11/cholesterol...
- georgieporgie 15y ago
  Then I take it you haven't been paying any attention to the news this past week. Huh? That only reinforces his point. Millions of people are on cholesterol medication. People have an irrational, negative reaction to medication related to mental health, yet cholesterol medication is socially acceptable. He wasn't discussing efficacy, he was discussing willingness to use medication.
  - Alex3917 15y ago
    "That only reinforces his point. [...] He wasn't discussing efficacy, he was discussing willingness to use medication." Whether or not it reinforces his point is irrelevant if his advice is wrong to begin with.
    - georgieporgie 15y ago
      But you posted a link about a single study showing a specific cholesterol drug being ineffective. How does that show his advice to be wrong?
      - Alex3917 15y ago
nkurz 15y ago
I'd love to hear more people's thoughts about his "Just Say Yes To Drugs". I'm at the point of considering drug treatments, but intellectually, I'm very biased against them. I avoid illegal drugs, and rarely take legal ones. I'm not absolutist, but I'd go out of my way to avoid coffee and ibuprofen. For his example, yes, I would feel the same way about blood pressure and cholesterol, and would work very hard to change my lifestyle before relying on the drugs. On the other hand, something needs to change. I'm scared of both the dependency and the effects. I think my basic fear is that if I find something effective, it will be suicide-light, that I'll be killing off too many parts of my self that make me who I am. It's hard for me to trust the testimony of the treated --- I presume that there are many satisfied frontal lobotomy patients as well. So oddly, I guess I'm more interested in second-hand accounts. My personal experience with treated friends is mixed. A few seem to be more functional versions of their previous selves, others are much closer to zombie shells. It's a hard subject to discuss, though, and I don't understand whether the differences are chance, personality, or drug regimen. How do you feel about your newly drugged up friends? Specific treatment details appreciated.
- FrojoS 15y ago
  I'd say, get up every morning at the same time. Got to bed every night at the same time. Do a bit of sport [1] every day. Avoid Sugar. If you still feel like drugs after doing this for a few months, you can still consider taking them. [1] Run around the block. Do some squads, pushups and crunches. No tools or commute required.
  - jlees 15y ago
    When you're at the point where medication is a serious option, even the step "get up" is difficult enough -- sticking to your plan for a few months is nigh on impossible.
  - nkurz 15y ago
    Yes, if my life allowed for sufficient and regular sleep, it would definitely be an improvement. Unfortunately as things stand, I go to sleep when I can work no more, and wake up when the first crisis calls. Last night was dealing with a broken equipment at midnight, emailing a lawyer at 2 am, and trying to help an employee at 8 am. I'd quit, but I'd end up $100K in debt and a dozen people would lose their jobs. So plowing forward seems like the best option. But although I'd be in better health, I'm not sure I'd be any less depressed. I think they are largely separate matters. The times in my life when I've had more such luxuries were much less stressful, but I don't recall them being particularly happier or more hopeful.
turoczy 15y ago
Second that emotion on the exercise. And diet is equally important. While the Red Bull, pizza, and caffeine swilling stereotype is prevalent, a well-thought out and balanced diet can make your coding more productive. You'll be creating fewer bugs, thinking more clearly, and feeling more positive about your progress if your (exercised) body has the fuel it needs, too. And reducing the number of stimulants you're ingesting will help with that whole sleeping thing too.
- mpg33 15y ago
  agree with diet...i think that "you are what you eat" saying is drastically underrated i am currently try to adhere to the "Paleo diet"...this may a bit too much for a lot of people (and also hard to do in western society) but eating healthy whole foods and cutting out sugar, dairy, grains, caffeine...makes a huge difference in terms of overall health.
  - ams6110 15y ago
    I've been doing a paleo-style diet for about 7-8 months now. I basically cut out the sugar, grains, and most dairy. I still drink coffee (with whole cream) and my other dairy intake would be butter and occasionally cheese. I've lost a lot of weight but otherwise I don't feel any different, i.e. thinking not noticeably clearer, energy/motivation not noticeably higher, etc.
michaelochurch 15y ago
He did a better job of addressing this issue than Noah Kagan, who was talking about mild fatigue rather than real depression (yes, there's a huge difference). Let me add: 6. Exercise, with a mix of activities: swimming, running (outdoor is better) and strength training. He mentioned that the brain interprets social isolation as a sign of low status. It also interprets physical activity (or the lack thereof) much in the same way. Using your body (running, swimming, hiking) tells the brain that you're an alpha and that it needs to step it up a notch. Mild depression is when the body and brain go into gamma mode (more severe depression is a biological dysfunction of that system) which would be a form of hibernation, as observed in medieval mountain communities during winter, but society isn't tolerant of that, so it leads to misery. (Some mild depressives would be fine, aside from the loss of time, if they could sleep 11-14 hours per day.) 7. Avoid cigarettes at all costs. Use alcohol sparingly: one drink is fine, but it takes a week to recover from a night of serious drinking... and if you're coding, you actually notice the loss. Avoid drugs like cocaine and heroin like the plague. Jury's still out on occasional use of LSD or shrooms (but people with any history of mental illness need to be very cautious) but they certainly shouldn't be a habit. 8. Relax. Sometimes it's necessary to spend time in the woods and just (sorry for sounding hippy-dippy) be mindful. 24/7 Internet connectivity is not always helpful. 9. Read novels and watch movies. There's something healing about narrative that isn't provided by (as much as they are enjoyable to read) books about formal semantics of programming languages. 10. Music. It helps. I have a lot of friends who say they never would have gotten through their teenage years, or a bad turn of business, without music. 11. Go somewhere new, do something different. It doesn't have to be an "exotic" or expensive vacation; if your goal is to heal, it's better that it not be. Just a trip to visit friends 50 km away can help. 12. 2 weeks of real vacation, as an absolute minimum, per year. Take unpaid leave if you need to. Four weeks is best. Total productivity is maximal at 3 weeks of vacation and per-day productivity is maximized at 7-9. Europeans have it figured out: you need two types of vacation: exploration vacations to new places (Alaska, Cambodia, Andes) where difficulty and stress are OK and relaxation vacations where stress levels are low and variation of activity is not required. Unfortunately, Americans get stuck having to choose one or the other, and generally do only the first kind of vacation when they're young and only the second kind when they're old. For the record, if you only get 1-2 weeks but can take unpaid leave without it hurting your career, you probably should. A 2% pay drop for an extra week of vacation is worth it IMO. 13. Fruits and vegetables. The casual arrow is unclear and probably goes both ways, but depressed people tend to eat a lot of white carbs. Americans tend to get dieting wrong, as if it's some set of religious prohibitions that have to be followed to the letter, when in reality there are few foods one should never eat. Instead of dieting negatively ("I won't eat X") it's better to diet positively and replace unhealthy foods with better alternatives (e.g. 70+ percent of your desserts should be fruit). 14. "Don't fuck crazy". High-power programming/technology, as a career, is only 10-20% more time-intensive than the average job-- you haven't seen bad hours till you've worked on Wall Street-- but it's 200% more energy-intensive. You need a supportive and decent partner who will be your rock of stability, not someone who will drain you.
SoftwareMaven 15y ago
I’ve always found it hard, if not impossible, to “join” groups. It feels like everyone already has the friends they need. I don’t know how to fix that. This has always been a problem for me. I used to think it was a sides-effect of the dysfunctional home that moved, on average, every three months that I grew up in. I knew I developed coping skills that put a wall between me and others. You can only say good-bye to friends so many times before you stop getting close enough to care that you are saying good-bye. Then I had kids and saw much of my own personality reflected back at me, but in different ways and degrees. At that point, I realized I probably always would have had difficulty making friends and would probably only had a couple friends. My upbringing made that worse, but wasn't likely the entire cause. Now, I find that I don't know how to get around that. Articles everywhere say, "meet with people", but I feel more lonely in those situations because I don't know how to break into the conversation. Depression makes it worse, because you are constantly asking yourself, "why would they even want to know about me?" There's only so many times you can go to the entrepreneur meet-up and not talk to people (even after presenting) before it starts doing more harm than good. I agree with the article that connecting with other people is of number one importance to fighting depression. I would really like to find the guidebook for doing that. :/
- antonp 15y ago
  Odds are your last sentence was a figure of speech, but I will go ahead and post this as a reference: "Intimate connections" by David Burns is a well regarded book on the somewhat related subject of building relationships. http://www.amazon.com/Intimate-Connections-David-D-Burns/dp/0451148452 http://www.amazon.com/Intimate-Connections-David-D-Burns/dp/...
  - SoftwareMaven 15y ago
    Thanks for the pointer. I've ordered it and will give it a try.
- retro212 15y ago
  I would try to join martial arts class. Stuff like brazilian jiu jitsu force you to be close (in proximity) to other people. When you train in pair, and change your training partners few times per training session you're forced to connect with people. I had this problem (although in pretty mild variant) before I started to train. And the best part is that you can take it slow if you want. You can just introduce yourself and focus on the technique, and after few sessions you will start to talk to people, and maybe even connect with some of them. I still get anxious when I come to the new club, but it lasts shorter every time.
georgieporgie 15y ago
Has anyone found a working environment where they're able to balance social interaction with the isolation and focus needed to code? I've only been happy at two jobs. At one, I shared an office with an awesome guy, and our personalities and senses of humor meshed well. We had a significant overlap in musical tastes, and enjoyed sharing music and witty banter throughout our days of work. The other was a startup where five of us worked in an open room, regularly taking breaks for coffee and lunch together. We had a bat-shit insane CEO, which really gave us something to bond over. :-) Looking at job postings is overwhelming. 50% claim a "work-life balance!" and a "work hard, play hard!" attitude, where I'm betting the work is harder than the play. The rest talk about "entrepreneurial spirit" and other codes long hours and isolation. It saddens me that listing hobbies and interests (more like passions) on a resume is considered unprofessional.
- edge17 15y ago
  Yes, every now and then in my life (and i've been fortunate for this), I've worked on teams that were just incredible. No other way to describe it, but you'll know it when it happens. It was just work hard, play hard and there was a lot of satisfaction to be had at the end of the day from what was accomplished. Everyone moves on with their lives though, and the older we get, the tougher it is to create those situations. For me it was college and then my first startup (which I did with my buddies from college. it was a success, all things considered; but man there is something to be said about riding a train on one rail with people that have your back).
- chipsy 15y ago
  I think creative job postings pose a sort of marketing problem. Everyone knows that for brief "moments in history," workplaces can turn into ridiculously exciting, creative places. But, of course, those periods never last forever. Eventually, the business changes, people come in or leave, and the company dies or takes another direction. The creative period may end suddenly, without ever resulting in a shipping product. So the real issue - if you're looking to maximize "work happiness" - would be to find some heuristics at the resume or interview stage to determine who's actually got the mojo at any point in time. That, or find a way to constantly bring that spirit into a more independent business situation.
xedarius 15y ago
Christ, it's a job, you're writing computer code. If it's that bad do something else. Nobody will die (or even care) if you leave the project, I know it feels like the world is on your shoulders, but it really isn't.
- steve-howard 15y ago
  Please, please, please learn more about depression and try to understand what people go through on a daily basis. Depressed people are often confronted with attitudes like this that fundamentally misunderstand the issue. People with major depressive disorder, bipolar affective disorder, or their cousins can be miserable and hate their lives even when they have everything they've ever asked for. It's not their fault.
  - SoftwareMaven 15y ago
    One of the 5% of articles that I think would benefit from seeing points. This GP's attitude makes it so difficult to get help. I've got a great job, wonderful wife, amazing kids, beautiful house, cute dogs and cats, and yet I can't pull myself out of bed in the morning. The problem is me, not my environment. I have to change.
araneae 15y ago
>He mentioned that the brain interprets social isolation as a sign of low status. That might be the case, except most of my social interactions are failed social interactions, which make me even more depressed.
gcb 15y ago
have a hard time accepting the Yes to drugs. have friends that take antidepressants and are ok. while others became totally disconnected with other peoples feelings, like they are small kids again. zero emotional intelligence, even tough they themselves seem happier.
- gcb 15y ago
  think that occasional recreational drug does much better to fight depression than daily legal drugs. btw, recreational drugs are better understood by medicine.
chmike 15y ago
What strikes me is that you consider the need to fight against your depression. Consider the possibility that you are really exhausted as if you ran a marathon. Obviously, you'll be slower and slower and probably hardly running in the end. There may also be a reaction of your body to force you to slow down so that you don't exhaust you to death. I also found out on myself that one may become tired for some type of activity, but I could switch to another type of intellectual activity giving a rest for the other. This is like switching to an activity using your arms when your legs are tired. Every depression or burnout is different by its cause and they way we react to it. One should be carful with popular advices. I believe in the need to rest and get a break from what is exhausting. Then work out the small positive steps, etc. Or switch activity. Checkout vitamins, B especially.
tritogeneia 15y ago
I'm not sure which of these factors contributed most to getting out of my bad spot, but in no particular order: 1. Running. (Strength training is good for many other goals, but frankly handling heavy objects isn't safe when you're severely fucked up and can't see straight. I can run even when I'm pretty deep in the hole and it has an almost curative effect.) 2. Making friends. 3. Starting a project I was actually successful at. 4. Learning not to tie my self-worth quite so tightly to my performance. The notion of "human dignity" -- the idea that all people have worth, even the ones who have personal flaws or make mistakes -- is really important.
- crag 15y ago
  Get a dog. Change my life. Really. I picked up a 95 pound black lab/dane mix (more lab.. and she's a BIG lab) on the advice of my therapist. Not seeing the therapist anymore. The dog got me out of the house. Where I met people and other dogs.
gregfjohnson 15y ago
There seems to be some deep intuition that anti-depressant drugs will adversely affect something essential about who a person is, how they will function, or how they will experience and perceive the world. I absolutely share those feelings and concerns. A therapist gave me great advice: let's be empirical. Instead of basing decisions on supposition, let's try a few things, gather some data in terms of how various options affect you, and base decisions on that accumulation of information. The only risks I could see with this strategy were (1) going on a drug and then stopping it would permanently damage me in some way or (2) I would become dependent on something. The other thing that has really influenced my thinking is how it is for people I love to live with me. Doing something to treat depression might have a noticeably positive impact on them. So even if my preference was to not receive treatment, based on a sense that the joys I love about life might become muted, or that I might not be able to think as well, or whatever, there are other people to consider.
etherael 15y ago
I have a strong urge to rebuke most of these "We're programmed to be like this, low status in our tribe etc etc" type lines of reasoning as outright ridiculous, however after considering it a little deeper it seems to me that's simply one interpretation of what actually happens. My desire to socialise atrophies, I do not feel like leaving my house, I want to focus harder and harder on creating things, learning, etc and I have less and less time for "normal life". It's possible to focus on what I'm drawing away from and characterise it as a loss, but to my view it is simply a sacrifice I choose to make of my own free will for something that I find more valuable. To my view removal from the tribe is not terrifying, it is not even undesirable. You lose some things, but you gain others, as with any narrow focus. There is no single right interpretation of what that actually means. Until you add in the subjective values of the interpreter, it's just a set of occurrences.
atlantic 15y ago
Something that has helped me a lot recently is to hit the gym every day. This has knocked a couple of hours per day off my working hours, but surprisingly I am more productive than before, because my mind is clearer and my mood is more positive. What I actually do in the gym is not that important - at the moment my focus is on cardio and abs. A second important point is to stay away from IT work on weekends - that way I start the week fresh and eager to do the job.
raju 15y ago
Great article, and some good insight. Like many others I have found that doing a little bit of exercise every day really helps. I used to (and need to get back to - been slacking off for a month or so now) do burpees. They are relatively quick, with a mix of cardio and some strength training, and hardly take any time at all. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Burpees https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Burpees I usually do the "pyramid" that is start by doing 11, then a minute break, followed by 10 all the way down to 1. It takes me roughly 15 minutes, but I end up feeling really good after that. Also, taking a break from arduous mental activity is a good thing - watch movies, read fiction, step outside with a point and shoot camera and take pictures. Anything that let's your mind relax for a bit. Finally, I have found that meditation really helps. It helps to slow you down, improves focus, and the world really seems different once you get used to it. Just concentrate on your breath, for 15 minutes a day (or twice a day) and everything seems a tad fresher and clearer. Of course, this article (and the comments) have got me thinking about a vacation. I don't take enough time off and I should.
lelele 15y ago
This recipe worked for me: - first thing, check for physical causes (thyroid, etc) - listen to motivational/inspirational speeches by people who made it - get out of your house! Be among trees as much as you can, and get as much (indirect) sunlight as you can. - work out: both cardio and strenght training. Regarding strenght training, bodyweight exercises are fine. Regarding cardio: do not run! Unless you have proper technique, you can injure yourself. Fast-paced walking is OK. Other favourites: stair-climbing, biking. - watch what you eat: avoid high glycemic-index foods - avoid consuming too much alcohol - don't be alone all the time

380 points by muddylemon 15y ago

billjings 15y ago

Stay active. Do something cardio intensive, and a lot of it.

Yxven 15y ago
biljings is right. Exercise is the most effective medicine for mild to moderate depression. It should be the first thing you do when you start to feel gloomy.
ccarpenterg 15y ago
I second you. Mens sana in corpore sano http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_sana_in_corpore_sano http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_sana_in_corpore_sano
singular 15y ago
Though I agree this is a good idea, I've had the experience of doing a lot of cardio exercise and having it not improve things, which was crushing given I had assumed it would make a big difference. In the end I crashed out of training after several months and have found it hard to re-engage ever since. So definitely do it, but don't have expectations going in other than you'll get that nice runner's high [1]. Deep depression is unfortunately a horrible bastard which doesn't allow you even the relief of things which are reliably great for the mild variety, and simply requires other people to help you. So if you find it doesn't shift, go out and get help. That's the hardest thing I have found from my own experience. [1]:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runner%27s_high#Runner.27s_high http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runner%27s_high#Runner.27s_high
- ams6110 15y ago
  While I feel that cardio activity helps clear my head, I've never felt a "high" from it. What it does is makes me sleepy. After a run the thing I want to do most is take a nap. So I'm not sure everyone can even expect a "high" from exercise.
  - singular 15y ago
    Hm, well after reading the wikipedia article (link in my parent post) actually I am not sure as to whether it's been demonstrated scientifically that it is always there, so perhaps then one should go into it with no expectations whatsoever :) - but don't get me wrong on this, I do think it's great advice, and for the majority of people it'll do wonders. Just be careful not to place too many expectations on it.
- billjings 15y ago
  You're right about deep depression being serious business, and I agree with you completely on the importance of grabbing hold of some social support. If I might, though... here's a little bit more on cardiovascular exercise as it relates to garden variety depression and motivation. At some point a couple of years back, I read some research on insulin sensitivity and glucose tolerance that led me to believe that they are related to some problems with depression and attention deficit. The natural conclusion from the research was that 1) regular aerobic exercise would help out a lot by improving glucose tolerance, and 2) improvements or impairments in insulin resistance/glucose tolerance would accumulate over time. That implies that intensive cardio may be beneficial, but it's not a magic bullet. It's not as important as making regular aerobic exercise a lifelong habit. So it has to be something you do even if you don't have a particular goal in mind on any one day. To that end: whatever you do for exercise, enjoy it. Don't feel like you have to run yourself into the ground. Plant the habit and help it grow. Oh, and also - for similar reasons, easing up on simple sugars and white bread is a good idea, too.
- zasz 15y ago
  Yup, same here. I exercise quite a bit. I get antsy if I don't do it, but it's never stopped me from feeling terrible about life.
jlees 15y ago
I agree, though I would add "outside" here. Running or biking outside makes me feel awesome, running on a treadmill makes me feel even more that life is futile. I know we don't always have the choice or ability to do this, but it's great when you can.
clark-kent 15y ago
To expand on this, I would say, get physically fit. The process of getting fit, changing your diet and working out, will keep your mind off the depression. It will give you more strength and energy. You will end up feeling better. Cardio activities also involves small challenges and small wins everyday. This will give you a sense of accomplishment. Its a huge morale boost. But you have to be consistent with the Cardio, and make it part of your lifestyle to rip the benefits.

Wickk 15y ago

>Drugs don’t have to be the only tool you use, but they can get you to a place where you’re healthy enough to think clearly about alternatives. This bears more emphasis. I was on medication for a very long while and whenever someone asks me how I got to where I am now, I'll jokingly say a very lengthy and close relationship with various different anti-depressants. Of course this ruffles feather in people in all the wrong ways, but its the truth. Anti depressants and psychotropics aren't going to magically cure you, but they are going to help you get to that place where you can figure out what's wrong and work towards getting better.

Alex3917 15y ago

"I always hear people beg off trying medication for mental health because they 'don't want to rely on a drug for the rest of their life.' I never hear that statement when someone is talking about blood pressure medication or cholesterol pills." Then I take it you haven't been paying any attention to the news this past week.[1] There are literally thousands of academic studies on depression. Is it really too much to ask that people learn something about the major findings in the field before giving others advice? Sorry, but it's extremely irresponsible to start taking drugs (or recommending them to others) without reading up on the academic research on what they do, whether we're talking about smoking crack or taking something your doctor prescribed. [1] http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/jan-june11/cholesterol_05-27.html http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/jan-june11/cholesterol...

georgieporgie 15y ago
Then I take it you haven't been paying any attention to the news this past week. Huh? That only reinforces his point. Millions of people are on cholesterol medication. People have an irrational, negative reaction to medication related to mental health, yet cholesterol medication is socially acceptable. He wasn't discussing efficacy, he was discussing willingness to use medication.
- Alex3917 15y ago
  "That only reinforces his point. [...] He wasn't discussing efficacy, he was discussing willingness to use medication." Whether or not it reinforces his point is irrelevant if his advice is wrong to begin with.
  - georgieporgie 15y ago
    But you posted a link about a single study showing a specific cholesterol drug being ineffective. How does that show his advice to be wrong?
    - Alex3917 15y ago

nkurz 15y ago

I'd love to hear more people's thoughts about his "Just Say Yes To Drugs". I'm at the point of considering drug treatments, but intellectually, I'm very biased against them. I avoid illegal drugs, and rarely take legal ones. I'm not absolutist, but I'd go out of my way to avoid coffee and ibuprofen. For his example, yes, I would feel the same way about blood pressure and cholesterol, and would work very hard to change my lifestyle before relying on the drugs. On the other hand, something needs to change. I'm scared of both the dependency and the effects. I think my basic fear is that if I find something effective, it will be suicide-light, that I'll be killing off too many parts of my self that make me who I am. It's hard for me to trust the testimony of the treated --- I presume that there are many satisfied frontal lobotomy patients as well. So oddly, I guess I'm more interested in second-hand accounts. My personal experience with treated friends is mixed. A few seem to be more functional versions of their previous selves, others are much closer to zombie shells. It's a hard subject to discuss, though, and I don't understand whether the differences are chance, personality, or drug regimen. How do you feel about your newly drugged up friends? Specific treatment details appreciated.

FrojoS 15y ago
I'd say, get up every morning at the same time. Got to bed every night at the same time. Do a bit of sport [1] every day. Avoid Sugar. If you still feel like drugs after doing this for a few months, you can still consider taking them. [1] Run around the block. Do some squads, pushups and crunches. No tools or commute required.
- jlees 15y ago
  When you're at the point where medication is a serious option, even the step "get up" is difficult enough -- sticking to your plan for a few months is nigh on impossible.
- nkurz 15y ago
  Yes, if my life allowed for sufficient and regular sleep, it would definitely be an improvement. Unfortunately as things stand, I go to sleep when I can work no more, and wake up when the first crisis calls. Last night was dealing with a broken equipment at midnight, emailing a lawyer at 2 am, and trying to help an employee at 8 am. I'd quit, but I'd end up $100K in debt and a dozen people would lose their jobs. So plowing forward seems like the best option. But although I'd be in better health, I'm not sure I'd be any less depressed. I think they are largely separate matters. The times in my life when I've had more such luxuries were much less stressful, but I don't recall them being particularly happier or more hopeful.

turoczy 15y ago

Second that emotion on the exercise. And diet is equally important. While the Red Bull, pizza, and caffeine swilling stereotype is prevalent, a well-thought out and balanced diet can make your coding more productive. You'll be creating fewer bugs, thinking more clearly, and feeling more positive about your progress if your (exercised) body has the fuel it needs, too. And reducing the number of stimulants you're ingesting will help with that whole sleeping thing too.

mpg33 15y ago
agree with diet...i think that "you are what you eat" saying is drastically underrated i am currently try to adhere to the "Paleo diet"...this may a bit too much for a lot of people (and also hard to do in western society) but eating healthy whole foods and cutting out sugar, dairy, grains, caffeine...makes a huge difference in terms of overall health.
- ams6110 15y ago
  I've been doing a paleo-style diet for about 7-8 months now. I basically cut out the sugar, grains, and most dairy. I still drink coffee (with whole cream) and my other dairy intake would be butter and occasionally cheese. I've lost a lot of weight but otherwise I don't feel any different, i.e. thinking not noticeably clearer, energy/motivation not noticeably higher, etc.

michaelochurch 15y ago

He did a better job of addressing this issue than Noah Kagan, who was talking about mild fatigue rather than real depression (yes, there's a huge difference). Let me add: 6. Exercise, with a mix of activities: swimming, running (outdoor is better) and strength training. He mentioned that the brain interprets social isolation as a sign of low status. It also interprets physical activity (or the lack thereof) much in the same way. Using your body (running, swimming, hiking) tells the brain that you're an alpha and that it needs to step it up a notch. Mild depression is when the body and brain go into gamma mode (more severe depression is a biological dysfunction of that system) which would be a form of hibernation, as observed in medieval mountain communities during winter, but society isn't tolerant of that, so it leads to misery. (Some mild depressives would be fine, aside from the loss of time, if they could sleep 11-14 hours per day.) 7. Avoid cigarettes at all costs. Use alcohol sparingly: one drink is fine, but it takes a week to recover from a night of serious drinking... and if you're coding, you actually notice the loss. Avoid drugs like cocaine and heroin like the plague. Jury's still out on occasional use of LSD or shrooms (but people with any history of mental illness need to be very cautious) but they certainly shouldn't be a habit. 8. Relax. Sometimes it's necessary to spend time in the woods and just (sorry for sounding hippy-dippy) be mindful. 24/7 Internet connectivity is not always helpful. 9. Read novels and watch movies. There's something healing about narrative that isn't provided by (as much as they are enjoyable to read) books about formal semantics of programming languages. 10. Music. It helps. I have a lot of friends who say they never would have gotten through their teenage years, or a bad turn of business, without music. 11. Go somewhere new, do something different. It doesn't have to be an "exotic" or expensive vacation; if your goal is to heal, it's better that it not be. Just a trip to visit friends 50 km away can help. 12. 2 weeks of real vacation, as an absolute minimum, per year. Take unpaid leave if you need to. Four weeks is best. Total productivity is maximal at 3 weeks of vacation and per-day productivity is maximized at 7-9. Europeans have it figured out: you need two types of vacation: exploration vacations to new places (Alaska, Cambodia, Andes) where difficulty and stress are OK and relaxation vacations where stress levels are low and variation of activity is not required. Unfortunately, Americans get stuck having to choose one or the other, and generally do only the first kind of vacation when they're young and only the second kind when they're old. For the record, if you only get 1-2 weeks but can take unpaid leave without it hurting your career, you probably should. A 2% pay drop for an extra week of vacation is worth it IMO. 13. Fruits and vegetables. The casual arrow is unclear and probably goes both ways, but depressed people tend to eat a lot of white carbs. Americans tend to get dieting wrong, as if it's some set of religious prohibitions that have to be followed to the letter, when in reality there are few foods one should never eat. Instead of dieting negatively ("I won't eat X") it's better to diet positively and replace unhealthy foods with better alternatives (e.g. 70+ percent of your desserts should be fruit). 14. "Don't fuck crazy". High-power programming/technology, as a career, is only 10-20% more time-intensive than the average job-- you haven't seen bad hours till you've worked on Wall Street-- but it's 200% more energy-intensive. You need a supportive and decent partner who will be your rock of stability, not someone who will drain you.

SoftwareMaven 15y ago

I’ve always found it hard, if not impossible, to “join” groups. It feels like everyone already has the friends they need. I don’t know how to fix that. This has always been a problem for me. I used to think it was a sides-effect of the dysfunctional home that moved, on average, every three months that I grew up in. I knew I developed coping skills that put a wall between me and others. You can only say good-bye to friends so many times before you stop getting close enough to care that you are saying good-bye. Then I had kids and saw much of my own personality reflected back at me, but in different ways and degrees. At that point, I realized I probably always would have had difficulty making friends and would probably only had a couple friends. My upbringing made that worse, but wasn't likely the entire cause. Now, I find that I don't know how to get around that. Articles everywhere say, "meet with people", but I feel more lonely in those situations because I don't know how to break into the conversation. Depression makes it worse, because you are constantly asking yourself, "why would they even want to know about me?" There's only so many times you can go to the entrepreneur meet-up and not talk to people (even after presenting) before it starts doing more harm than good. I agree with the article that connecting with other people is of number one importance to fighting depression. I would really like to find the guidebook for doing that. :/

antonp 15y ago
Odds are your last sentence was a figure of speech, but I will go ahead and post this as a reference: "Intimate connections" by David Burns is a well regarded book on the somewhat related subject of building relationships. http://www.amazon.com/Intimate-Connections-David-D-Burns/dp/0451148452 http://www.amazon.com/Intimate-Connections-David-D-Burns/dp/...
- SoftwareMaven 15y ago
  Thanks for the pointer. I've ordered it and will give it a try.
retro212 15y ago
I would try to join martial arts class. Stuff like brazilian jiu jitsu force you to be close (in proximity) to other people. When you train in pair, and change your training partners few times per training session you're forced to connect with people. I had this problem (although in pretty mild variant) before I started to train. And the best part is that you can take it slow if you want. You can just introduce yourself and focus on the technique, and after few sessions you will start to talk to people, and maybe even connect with some of them. I still get anxious when I come to the new club, but it lasts shorter every time.

georgieporgie 15y ago

Has anyone found a working environment where they're able to balance social interaction with the isolation and focus needed to code? I've only been happy at two jobs. At one, I shared an office with an awesome guy, and our personalities and senses of humor meshed well. We had a significant overlap in musical tastes, and enjoyed sharing music and witty banter throughout our days of work. The other was a startup where five of us worked in an open room, regularly taking breaks for coffee and lunch together. We had a bat-shit insane CEO, which really gave us something to bond over. :-) Looking at job postings is overwhelming. 50% claim a "work-life balance!" and a "work hard, play hard!" attitude, where I'm betting the work is harder than the play. The rest talk about "entrepreneurial spirit" and other codes long hours and isolation. It saddens me that listing hobbies and interests (more like passions) on a resume is considered unprofessional.

edge17 15y ago
Yes, every now and then in my life (and i've been fortunate for this), I've worked on teams that were just incredible. No other way to describe it, but you'll know it when it happens. It was just work hard, play hard and there was a lot of satisfaction to be had at the end of the day from what was accomplished. Everyone moves on with their lives though, and the older we get, the tougher it is to create those situations. For me it was college and then my first startup (which I did with my buddies from college. it was a success, all things considered; but man there is something to be said about riding a train on one rail with people that have your back).
chipsy 15y ago
I think creative job postings pose a sort of marketing problem. Everyone knows that for brief "moments in history," workplaces can turn into ridiculously exciting, creative places. But, of course, those periods never last forever. Eventually, the business changes, people come in or leave, and the company dies or takes another direction. The creative period may end suddenly, without ever resulting in a shipping product. So the real issue - if you're looking to maximize "work happiness" - would be to find some heuristics at the resume or interview stage to determine who's actually got the mojo at any point in time. That, or find a way to constantly bring that spirit into a more independent business situation.

xedarius 15y ago

Christ, it's a job, you're writing computer code. If it's that bad do something else. Nobody will die (or even care) if you leave the project, I know it feels like the world is on your shoulders, but it really isn't.

steve-howard 15y ago
Please, please, please learn more about depression and try to understand what people go through on a daily basis. Depressed people are often confronted with attitudes like this that fundamentally misunderstand the issue. People with major depressive disorder, bipolar affective disorder, or their cousins can be miserable and hate their lives even when they have everything they've ever asked for. It's not their fault.
- SoftwareMaven 15y ago
  One of the 5% of articles that I think would benefit from seeing points. This GP's attitude makes it so difficult to get help. I've got a great job, wonderful wife, amazing kids, beautiful house, cute dogs and cats, and yet I can't pull myself out of bed in the morning. The problem is me, not my environment. I have to change.

araneae 15y ago

>He mentioned that the brain interprets social isolation as a sign of low status. That might be the case, except most of my social interactions are failed social interactions, which make me even more depressed.

gcb 15y ago

have a hard time accepting the Yes to drugs. have friends that take antidepressants and are ok. while others became totally disconnected with other peoples feelings, like they are small kids again. zero emotional intelligence, even tough they themselves seem happier.

gcb 15y ago
think that occasional recreational drug does much better to fight depression than daily legal drugs. btw, recreational drugs are better understood by medicine.

chmike 15y ago

What strikes me is that you consider the need to fight against your depression. Consider the possibility that you are really exhausted as if you ran a marathon. Obviously, you'll be slower and slower and probably hardly running in the end. There may also be a reaction of your body to force you to slow down so that you don't exhaust you to death. I also found out on myself that one may become tired for some type of activity, but I could switch to another type of intellectual activity giving a rest for the other. This is like switching to an activity using your arms when your legs are tired. Every depression or burnout is different by its cause and they way we react to it. One should be carful with popular advices. I believe in the need to rest and get a break from what is exhausting. Then work out the small positive steps, etc. Or switch activity. Checkout vitamins, B especially.

tritogeneia 15y ago

I'm not sure which of these factors contributed most to getting out of my bad spot, but in no particular order: 1. Running. (Strength training is good for many other goals, but frankly handling heavy objects isn't safe when you're severely fucked up and can't see straight. I can run even when I'm pretty deep in the hole and it has an almost curative effect.) 2. Making friends. 3. Starting a project I was actually successful at. 4. Learning not to tie my self-worth quite so tightly to my performance. The notion of "human dignity" -- the idea that all people have worth, even the ones who have personal flaws or make mistakes -- is really important.

crag 15y ago
Get a dog. Change my life. Really. I picked up a 95 pound black lab/dane mix (more lab.. and she's a BIG lab) on the advice of my therapist. Not seeing the therapist anymore. The dog got me out of the house. Where I met people and other dogs.

gregfjohnson 15y ago

There seems to be some deep intuition that anti-depressant drugs will adversely affect something essential about who a person is, how they will function, or how they will experience and perceive the world. I absolutely share those feelings and concerns. A therapist gave me great advice: let's be empirical. Instead of basing decisions on supposition, let's try a few things, gather some data in terms of how various options affect you, and base decisions on that accumulation of information. The only risks I could see with this strategy were (1) going on a drug and then stopping it would permanently damage me in some way or (2) I would become dependent on something. The other thing that has really influenced my thinking is how it is for people I love to live with me. Doing something to treat depression might have a noticeably positive impact on them. So even if my preference was to not receive treatment, based on a sense that the joys I love about life might become muted, or that I might not be able to think as well, or whatever, there are other people to consider.

etherael 15y ago

I have a strong urge to rebuke most of these "We're programmed to be like this, low status in our tribe etc etc" type lines of reasoning as outright ridiculous, however after considering it a little deeper it seems to me that's simply one interpretation of what actually happens. My desire to socialise atrophies, I do not feel like leaving my house, I want to focus harder and harder on creating things, learning, etc and I have less and less time for "normal life". It's possible to focus on what I'm drawing away from and characterise it as a loss, but to my view it is simply a sacrifice I choose to make of my own free will for something that I find more valuable. To my view removal from the tribe is not terrifying, it is not even undesirable. You lose some things, but you gain others, as with any narrow focus. There is no single right interpretation of what that actually means. Until you add in the subjective values of the interpreter, it's just a set of occurrences.

atlantic 15y ago

Something that has helped me a lot recently is to hit the gym every day. This has knocked a couple of hours per day off my working hours, but surprisingly I am more productive than before, because my mind is clearer and my mood is more positive. What I actually do in the gym is not that important - at the moment my focus is on cardio and abs. A second important point is to stay away from IT work on weekends - that way I start the week fresh and eager to do the job.

raju 15y ago

Great article, and some good insight. Like many others I have found that doing a little bit of exercise every day really helps. I used to (and need to get back to - been slacking off for a month or so now) do burpees. They are relatively quick, with a mix of cardio and some strength training, and hardly take any time at all. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Burpees https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Burpees I usually do the "pyramid" that is start by doing 11, then a minute break, followed by 10 all the way down to 1. It takes me roughly 15 minutes, but I end up feeling really good after that. Also, taking a break from arduous mental activity is a good thing - watch movies, read fiction, step outside with a point and shoot camera and take pictures. Anything that let's your mind relax for a bit. Finally, I have found that meditation really helps. It helps to slow you down, improves focus, and the world really seems different once you get used to it. Just concentrate on your breath, for 15 minutes a day (or twice a day) and everything seems a tad fresher and clearer. Of course, this article (and the comments) have got me thinking about a vacation. I don't take enough time off and I should.

lelele 15y ago

This recipe worked for me: - first thing, check for physical causes (thyroid, etc) - listen to motivational/inspirational speeches by people who made it - get out of your house! Be among trees as much as you can, and get as much (indirect) sunlight as you can. - work out: both cardio and strenght training. Regarding strenght training, bodyweight exercises are fine. Regarding cardio: do not run! Unless you have proper technique, you can injure yourself. Fast-paced walking is OK. Other favourites: stair-climbing, biking. - watch what you eat: avoid high glycemic-index foods - avoid consuming too much alcohol - don't be alone all the time