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> privacy oriented fintech Can you elaborate on that term? We are talking here about digital payments, right? (where usually more than 3 parties involved in th

> privacy oriented fintech Can you elaborate on that term? We are talking here about digital payments, right? (where usually more than 3 parties involved in this process) How are you gonna make sure the whole transaction is not traceable back to you?

teekert 6y ago
It will always be traceable and you can see that many fintecht companies that make things easier (like bunq and N26) also catch a lot of attention from bad guys and at the same time seem to freeze quite some accounts based on suspicious activity (I see that on the forums, I think there are a lot of false positives as well). A lot of "Whatsapp fraud money" seems to move through these companies, no wonder because with some you can get several cards activated immediately, funnel money through hopeless people's accounts into bitcoin exchanges or cash and it's gone. Anyway, we can only hope they won't outlaw cryptocurrencies to have a glimmer of hope for anonymous payment in the future.
- nalekberov 6y ago
  Oh, speaking of cryptocurrencies I recently came across with this article. https://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2020-December/036510.html https://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2020-Decembe...
  - teekert 6y ago
    Well, Zcoin, Monero and Dash being delisted from exchanges has got to mean that they are at least somewhat effective...?
HenryBemis 6y ago
> privacy oriented fintech this phrase is an oxymoron. Banks need to monitor, track, report activities. Central banks 'siphon' all transactions every day/week/month, so they can cross reference that Henry Bemis made in total $100m transactions today even if he used 50 different banks. A single bank can only track/monitor for AML its own clients. Central Banks can do that. Tax authorities can tap into bank's data. Side note: There is no such thing as privacy when you use a card. The only thing that 'protects' you is that your bank won't sell your data to Facebook. But NatWest banking app DOES talk to FB when you fire it up... so... at least they don't tell FB (yet) everything you do.
- nalekberov 6y ago
  Exactly, I cannot agree more.
- teekert 6y ago
  Yeah, I agree.
- kodah 6y ago
  Privacy != anonymity; usually. Specific institutions, like finance, need to be able to discern your identity in some way in order to remain viable economic institutions. Provenance of monies can be a big question, and an important one, when dealing with people who spend their time in financial crime. If financial institutions could use a technology that is similar to PGP that maintains an identity without needing to reveal who you are, to me this is privacy. There's obvious exceptions to that, but generally I think it's a good idea given that one of the major ways merchandisers collect data on you is via transactions.
  - HenryBemis 6y ago
    Banks (and similar orgs) have a term for this. It is called "KYC" Know Your Customer. That includes all your data (the ones they have, the ones you provide - e.g. address, tax/payroll records if you want to apply for a loan and they ask source of income, etc.) When you talk to a "relationship manager" be certain that (if they are any good at their job) what you tell them is recorded and stays in your file. This has also a positive side. E.g. I never shop shoes online. So my bank called me one fine afternoon because someone used my card number to buy shoes. That store only sells women's shoes (I am a man). This was not consistent with my "profile" (of course I have one) and they cancelled the transactions, refunded the money, notified VISA and merchant, and called me to tell me that they will see the transactions on my logs (-50, -100, -150 and then +50, +100, +150). I expect and demand that from my bank, but not from Facebook: "hey why aren't you in your typical pizza resto and you went across the street?"
    - nnx 6y ago
      This is interesting use case but has nothing to do with invasive KYC (as done by banks), the same anomaly detection and follow up could be done if you were some random identifier “Joe” with any contact detail (email, phone number, telegram handle, ...)

teekert 6y ago

It will always be traceable and you can see that many fintecht companies that make things easier (like bunq and N26) also catch a lot of attention from bad guys and at the same time seem to freeze quite some accounts based on suspicious activity (I see that on the forums, I think there are a lot of false positives as well). A lot of "Whatsapp fraud money" seems to move through these companies, no wonder because with some you can get several cards activated immediately, funnel money through hopeless people's accounts into bitcoin exchanges or cash and it's gone. Anyway, we can only hope they won't outlaw cryptocurrencies to have a glimmer of hope for anonymous payment in the future.

nalekberov 6y ago
Oh, speaking of cryptocurrencies I recently came across with this article. https://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2020-December/036510.html https://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2020-Decembe...
- teekert 6y ago
  Well, Zcoin, Monero and Dash being delisted from exchanges has got to mean that they are at least somewhat effective...?

HenryBemis 6y ago

> privacy oriented fintech this phrase is an oxymoron. Banks need to monitor, track, report activities. Central banks 'siphon' all transactions every day/week/month, so they can cross reference that Henry Bemis made in total $100m transactions today even if he used 50 different banks. A single bank can only track/monitor for AML its own clients. Central Banks can do that. Tax authorities can tap into bank's data. Side note: There is no such thing as privacy when you use a card. The only thing that 'protects' you is that your bank won't sell your data to Facebook. But NatWest banking app DOES talk to FB when you fire it up... so... at least they don't tell FB (yet) everything you do.

nalekberov 6y ago
Exactly, I cannot agree more.
teekert 6y ago
Yeah, I agree.
kodah 6y ago
Privacy != anonymity; usually. Specific institutions, like finance, need to be able to discern your identity in some way in order to remain viable economic institutions. Provenance of monies can be a big question, and an important one, when dealing with people who spend their time in financial crime. If financial institutions could use a technology that is similar to PGP that maintains an identity without needing to reveal who you are, to me this is privacy. There's obvious exceptions to that, but generally I think it's a good idea given that one of the major ways merchandisers collect data on you is via transactions.
- HenryBemis 6y ago
  Banks (and similar orgs) have a term for this. It is called "KYC" Know Your Customer. That includes all your data (the ones they have, the ones you provide - e.g. address, tax/payroll records if you want to apply for a loan and they ask source of income, etc.) When you talk to a "relationship manager" be certain that (if they are any good at their job) what you tell them is recorded and stays in your file. This has also a positive side. E.g. I never shop shoes online. So my bank called me one fine afternoon because someone used my card number to buy shoes. That store only sells women's shoes (I am a man). This was not consistent with my "profile" (of course I have one) and they cancelled the transactions, refunded the money, notified VISA and merchant, and called me to tell me that they will see the transactions on my logs (-50, -100, -150 and then +50, +100, +150). I expect and demand that from my bank, but not from Facebook: "hey why aren't you in your typical pizza resto and you went across the street?"
  - nnx 6y ago
    This is interesting use case but has nothing to do with invasive KYC (as done by banks), the same anomaly detection and follow up could be done if you were some random identifier “Joe” with any contact detail (email, phone number, telegram handle, ...)