4 ms·

You can ask an employment lawyer if you want to know what is actually enforceable after signing. But you can also just object to any terms in the contract that

You can ask an employment lawyer if you want to know what is actually enforceable after signing. But you can also just object to any terms in the contract that you think are going too far and you can negotiate with your company to remove them before signing. Whether the terms are potentially legal or not if signed doesn't always matter. It's usually easier to just not to sign anything that says you have to do something that you don't want to do. For example, some jurisdictions say it is legal for an employer to write a contract that says they own anything you do in your spare time outside of work (US New York) but others set firmer limits on what the company can legally claim (US California). But in either case, you can just refuse to agree to it and negotiate better terms before signing.

iandanforth 6y ago
I once had a company ask that I hold them harmless for fraud. This was part of a severance and all I had to say was "no" and they took it out.
chadash 6y ago
I commonly find this advice on the internet and it’s never worked in practice for me. Most companies have standard legal contracts for all employees. Changing them is expensive because they need to pay lawyers and convince managers. On the other hand, asking for more salary is a question that pretty much any manager deals with regularly. So I usually do that. I find that there’s a dollar value I can put on most legal clauses as long as I understand them. If I can’t put a dollar value on it, and it really makes me uncomfortable (after speaking to my lawyer) Id just walk away.
mxuribe 6y ago
I have anecdotes from friends who have tried to object to terms...and they never seemed to have leverage in the negotiation. In almost every case, their direct boss was in favor of adjusting the terms to appease the employee (my friends) - because the supervisor saw the value in the employee...But either senior management or legal teams on the employer side - not understanding or caring for the value of the employee - are resistant to any adjustment of terms. For those senior members it almost becomes a mini war. Usually they respond within the kind of comments like "if you don't like the terms, go work elsewhere". In essence the majority of direct supervisors want to help employees, but the higher ups act like owners of a factory in late 1800s! So, yeah in theory an employee can object and try to negotiate...but in my almost 3 decades of professional career (as a technologist across numerous different industries), I have *never* heard of any good outcomes for an employee - they either have to accept terms or leave. (If things have turned out great for you, then huzzah for you; I count you in the minority!)
- emilecantin 6y ago
  I have _always_ been able to either change the terms of the contract, or get (in writing) an acceptable, more limited interpretation of what's written in the contract (by defining a term in the more strict sense of the word instead of keeping it broad). But then, I've mostly worked in small companies; I suspect a FAANG is pretty different in that regard.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    If you're negotiating with a founder it's one thing. If you're negotiating with someone who has to run changes five levels up to a legal department that's going to have to assign someone to do a contract review that's something pretty different.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - mxuribe 6y ago
    I can imagine smaller firms might lend themselves to more possibilities for negotiations. I've never worked for a small firm nor a FAANG...I have always only worked for large enterprises - many with names that are easily recognizable globally, and maybe 1 or 2 jobs with enterprises that are major names only in U.S. markets...but those firms ran the gamut with respect to industry (and none in the FAANG or silicon valley/startup sector)...so as other folks have stated, the ability to succeed in these types of negotiations can vary greatly by size of company, seniority of role, perceived value to team or org., etc.
- ageitgey 6y ago
  > If things have turned out great for you, then huzzah for you; I count you in the minority! I appreciate your experience. I think it depends on a lot on the company, where you work, your level of experience, etc. When I've done work for smaller companies, I've often negotiated the terms with little to no issue (literally striking lines/paragraphs from the agreement as long as it was reasonable). But if you work for a FAANG, negotiating the legal terms is probably not going to happen unless you are a high level employee with a custom contract since they have a standardized hiring process for thousands of employees. It also depends on your role and level of experience. The more senior you are or the more key the hire, the more you can probably negotiate. If you are a fresh hire from college, then you probably won't have any leverage at all. Finally, I think your experience will vary a lot by how tight the market is for hiring someone in your position in that area. I've seen key technical hires in Silicon Valley negotiate all kinds of things if the company really wants to hire them. I've also seen people in roles like Project Managers and Designers be completely shut out of negotiating when the local market wasn't as competitive. Finally, I've seen people in less tech-dense cities with less market competition have no negotiating power even if they were senior hires.

iandanforth 6y ago

I once had a company ask that I hold them harmless for fraud. This was part of a severance and all I had to say was "no" and they took it out.

chadash 6y ago

I commonly find this advice on the internet and it’s never worked in practice for me. Most companies have standard legal contracts for all employees. Changing them is expensive because they need to pay lawyers and convince managers. On the other hand, asking for more salary is a question that pretty much any manager deals with regularly. So I usually do that. I find that there’s a dollar value I can put on most legal clauses as long as I understand them. If I can’t put a dollar value on it, and it really makes me uncomfortable (after speaking to my lawyer) Id just walk away.

mxuribe 6y ago

I have anecdotes from friends who have tried to object to terms...and they never seemed to have leverage in the negotiation. In almost every case, their direct boss was in favor of adjusting the terms to appease the employee (my friends) - because the supervisor saw the value in the employee...But either senior management or legal teams on the employer side - not understanding or caring for the value of the employee - are resistant to any adjustment of terms. For those senior members it almost becomes a mini war. Usually they respond within the kind of comments like "if you don't like the terms, go work elsewhere". In essence the majority of direct supervisors want to help employees, but the higher ups act like owners of a factory in late 1800s! So, yeah in theory an employee can object and try to negotiate...but in my almost 3 decades of professional career (as a technologist across numerous different industries), I have *never* heard of any good outcomes for an employee - they either have to accept terms or leave. (If things have turned out great for you, then huzzah for you; I count you in the minority!)

emilecantin 6y ago
I have _always_ been able to either change the terms of the contract, or get (in writing) an acceptable, more limited interpretation of what's written in the contract (by defining a term in the more strict sense of the word instead of keeping it broad). But then, I've mostly worked in small companies; I suspect a FAANG is pretty different in that regard.
- ghaff 6y ago
  If you're negotiating with a founder it's one thing. If you're negotiating with someone who has to run changes five levels up to a legal department that's going to have to assign someone to do a contract review that's something pretty different.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- mxuribe 6y ago
  I can imagine smaller firms might lend themselves to more possibilities for negotiations. I've never worked for a small firm nor a FAANG...I have always only worked for large enterprises - many with names that are easily recognizable globally, and maybe 1 or 2 jobs with enterprises that are major names only in U.S. markets...but those firms ran the gamut with respect to industry (and none in the FAANG or silicon valley/startup sector)...so as other folks have stated, the ability to succeed in these types of negotiations can vary greatly by size of company, seniority of role, perceived value to team or org., etc.
ageitgey 6y ago
> If things have turned out great for you, then huzzah for you; I count you in the minority! I appreciate your experience. I think it depends on a lot on the company, where you work, your level of experience, etc. When I've done work for smaller companies, I've often negotiated the terms with little to no issue (literally striking lines/paragraphs from the agreement as long as it was reasonable). But if you work for a FAANG, negotiating the legal terms is probably not going to happen unless you are a high level employee with a custom contract since they have a standardized hiring process for thousands of employees. It also depends on your role and level of experience. The more senior you are or the more key the hire, the more you can probably negotiate. If you are a fresh hire from college, then you probably won't have any leverage at all. Finally, I think your experience will vary a lot by how tight the market is for hiring someone in your position in that area. I've seen key technical hires in Silicon Valley negotiate all kinds of things if the company really wants to hire them. I've also seen people in roles like Project Managers and Designers be completely shut out of negotiating when the local market wasn't as competitive. Finally, I've seen people in less tech-dense cities with less market competition have no negotiating power even if they were senior hires.