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When I first visited the Netherlands in 2017 I observed public transportation was transitioning to plastic card only payments. That was my first impression abo

When I first visited the Netherlands in 2017 I observed public transportation was transitioning to plastic card only payments. That was my first impression about the country in privacy context, not being able to use cash is a big attack on privacy.

teekert 6y ago
Yeah there is that wish to go away from cash but we also had this: [0, from 2016]. I hope we will have more privacy oriented fintech companies soon, indeed it may swing the wrong way. It depends a bit on the ruling parties (we have many and they have to form a coalition.) [0] https://www.theregister.com/2016/01/04/dutch_government_says_no_to_backdoors/ https://www.theregister.com/2016/01/04/dutch_government_says...
- nalekberov 6y ago
  > privacy oriented fintech Can you elaborate on that term? We are talking here about digital payments, right? (where usually more than 3 parties involved in this process) How are you gonna make sure the whole transaction is not traceable back to you?
  - teekert 6y ago
    It will always be traceable and you can see that many fintecht companies that make things easier (like bunq and N26) also catch a lot of attention from bad guys and at the same time seem to freeze quite some accounts based on suspicious activity (I see that on the forums, I think there are a lot of false positives as well). A lot of "Whatsapp fraud money" seems to move through these companies, no wonder because with some you can get several cards activated immediately, funnel money through hopeless people's accounts into bitcoin exchanges or cash and it's gone. Anyway, we can only hope they won't outlaw cryptocurrencies to have a glimmer of hope for anonymous payment in the future.
    - nalekberov 6y ago
      Oh, speaking of cryptocurrencies I recently came across with this article. https://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2020-December/036510.html https://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2020-Decembe...
      - teekert 6y ago
        Well, Zcoin, Monero and Dash being delisted from exchanges has got to mean that they are at least somewhat effective...?
  - HenryBemis 6y ago
    > privacy oriented fintech this phrase is an oxymoron. Banks need to monitor, track, report activities. Central banks 'siphon' all transactions every day/week/month, so they can cross reference that Henry Bemis made in total $100m transactions today even if he used 50 different banks. A single bank can only track/monitor for AML its own clients. Central Banks can do that. Tax authorities can tap into bank's data. Side note: There is no such thing as privacy when you use a card. The only thing that 'protects' you is that your bank won't sell your data to Facebook. But NatWest banking app DOES talk to FB when you fire it up... so... at least they don't tell FB (yet) everything you do.
    - nalekberov 6y ago
      Exactly, I cannot agree more.
    - teekert 6y ago
      Yeah, I agree.
    - kodah 6y ago
      Privacy != anonymity; usually. Specific institutions, like finance, need to be able to discern your identity in some way in order to remain viable economic institutions. Provenance of monies can be a big question, and an important one, when dealing with people who spend their time in financial crime. If financial institutions could use a technology that is similar to PGP that maintains an identity without needing to reveal who you are, to me this is privacy. There's obvious exceptions to that, but generally I think it's a good idea given that one of the major ways merchandisers collect data on you is via transactions.
      - HenryBemis 6y ago
        Banks (and similar orgs) have a term for this. It is called "KYC" Know Your Customer. That includes all your data (the ones they have, the ones you provide - e.g. address, tax/payroll records if you want to apply for a loan and they ask source of income, etc.) When you talk to a "relationship manager" be certain that (if they are any good at their job) what you tell them is recorded and stays in your file. This has also a positive side. E.g. I never shop shoes online. So my bank called me one fine afternoon because someone used my card number to buy shoes. That store only sells women's shoes (I am a man). This was not consistent with my "profile" (of course I have one) and they cancelled the transactions, refunded the money, notified VISA and merchant, and called me to tell me that they will see the transactions on my logs (-50, -100, -150 and then +50, +100, +150). I expect and demand that from my bank, but not from Facebook: "hey why aren't you in your typical pizza resto and you went across the street?"
Koenvh 6y ago
You can still get an anonymous card [1], along with paper cards from a machine, and printed e-tickets. So I would not say that travelling anonymously is becoming impossible, but rather that the current method is a lot more convenient for most, and thus the most known one. [1] https://www.ov-chipkaart.nl/purchase-an-ov-chipkaart/anonymous-ov-chipkaart.htm https://www.ov-chipkaart.nl/purchase-an-ov-chipkaart/anonymo...
- nalekberov 6y ago
  Thanks for pointing this out. I didn't know about that. My experience was like that: one day I could buy transport card by cash, the other day the driver informed that I cannot but tickets by cash anymore.
- vaduz 6y ago
  The card is anonymous, but loading it with money is not, at least not in practice - most machines I've encountered only accept Maestro/VPay (which is an improvement over PIN, as they are marginally available in other countries, but they are also tied to your identity), so you are left with the service points at major train stations at best. Exceptions were more common in the Strippenkaart era. At least that was the situation by late 2019/early 2020, as I have not been able to travel to Randstad since then for rather obvious reasons.

teekert 6y ago

Yeah there is that wish to go away from cash but we also had this: [0, from 2016]. I hope we will have more privacy oriented fintech companies soon, indeed it may swing the wrong way. It depends a bit on the ruling parties (we have many and they have to form a coalition.) [0] https://www.theregister.com/2016/01/04/dutch_government_says_no_to_backdoors/ https://www.theregister.com/2016/01/04/dutch_government_says...

nalekberov 6y ago
> privacy oriented fintech Can you elaborate on that term? We are talking here about digital payments, right? (where usually more than 3 parties involved in this process) How are you gonna make sure the whole transaction is not traceable back to you?
- teekert 6y ago
  It will always be traceable and you can see that many fintecht companies that make things easier (like bunq and N26) also catch a lot of attention from bad guys and at the same time seem to freeze quite some accounts based on suspicious activity (I see that on the forums, I think there are a lot of false positives as well). A lot of "Whatsapp fraud money" seems to move through these companies, no wonder because with some you can get several cards activated immediately, funnel money through hopeless people's accounts into bitcoin exchanges or cash and it's gone. Anyway, we can only hope they won't outlaw cryptocurrencies to have a glimmer of hope for anonymous payment in the future.
  - nalekberov 6y ago
    Oh, speaking of cryptocurrencies I recently came across with this article. https://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2020-December/036510.html https://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2020-Decembe...
    - teekert 6y ago
      Well, Zcoin, Monero and Dash being delisted from exchanges has got to mean that they are at least somewhat effective...?
- HenryBemis 6y ago
  > privacy oriented fintech this phrase is an oxymoron. Banks need to monitor, track, report activities. Central banks 'siphon' all transactions every day/week/month, so they can cross reference that Henry Bemis made in total $100m transactions today even if he used 50 different banks. A single bank can only track/monitor for AML its own clients. Central Banks can do that. Tax authorities can tap into bank's data. Side note: There is no such thing as privacy when you use a card. The only thing that 'protects' you is that your bank won't sell your data to Facebook. But NatWest banking app DOES talk to FB when you fire it up... so... at least they don't tell FB (yet) everything you do.
  - nalekberov 6y ago
    Exactly, I cannot agree more.
  - teekert 6y ago
    Yeah, I agree.
  - kodah 6y ago
    Privacy != anonymity; usually. Specific institutions, like finance, need to be able to discern your identity in some way in order to remain viable economic institutions. Provenance of monies can be a big question, and an important one, when dealing with people who spend their time in financial crime. If financial institutions could use a technology that is similar to PGP that maintains an identity without needing to reveal who you are, to me this is privacy. There's obvious exceptions to that, but generally I think it's a good idea given that one of the major ways merchandisers collect data on you is via transactions.
    - HenryBemis 6y ago
      Banks (and similar orgs) have a term for this. It is called "KYC" Know Your Customer. That includes all your data (the ones they have, the ones you provide - e.g. address, tax/payroll records if you want to apply for a loan and they ask source of income, etc.) When you talk to a "relationship manager" be certain that (if they are any good at their job) what you tell them is recorded and stays in your file. This has also a positive side. E.g. I never shop shoes online. So my bank called me one fine afternoon because someone used my card number to buy shoes. That store only sells women's shoes (I am a man). This was not consistent with my "profile" (of course I have one) and they cancelled the transactions, refunded the money, notified VISA and merchant, and called me to tell me that they will see the transactions on my logs (-50, -100, -150 and then +50, +100, +150). I expect and demand that from my bank, but not from Facebook: "hey why aren't you in your typical pizza resto and you went across the street?"

Koenvh 6y ago

You can still get an anonymous card [1], along with paper cards from a machine, and printed e-tickets. So I would not say that travelling anonymously is becoming impossible, but rather that the current method is a lot more convenient for most, and thus the most known one. [1] https://www.ov-chipkaart.nl/purchase-an-ov-chipkaart/anonymous-ov-chipkaart.htm https://www.ov-chipkaart.nl/purchase-an-ov-chipkaart/anonymo...

nalekberov 6y ago
Thanks for pointing this out. I didn't know about that. My experience was like that: one day I could buy transport card by cash, the other day the driver informed that I cannot but tickets by cash anymore.
vaduz 6y ago
The card is anonymous, but loading it with money is not, at least not in practice - most machines I've encountered only accept Maestro/VPay (which is an improvement over PIN, as they are marginally available in other countries, but they are also tied to your identity), so you are left with the service points at major train stations at best. Exceptions were more common in the Strippenkaart era. At least that was the situation by late 2019/early 2020, as I have not been able to travel to Randstad since then for rather obvious reasons.