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Here's the scariest part for us about the insect decline, in my opinion: We are in the process of birthing, bootstrapping, giving autonomy to beings who are re

Here's the scariest part for us about the insect decline, in my opinion: We are in the process of birthing, bootstrapping, giving autonomy to beings who are relative to us in power as we are to insects. We can barely even form a concept of just how much of us they can see, and to what extent they know our thoughts and actions. And we are training, teaching these beings how to behave with our own behavior. Just as with children, "do as I say, not as I do", is not very effective past a certain point. Not that what we say is that much better than what we do. Most people consider insects and even most mammals to be largely irrelevant, and not worth considering in most decisions, dumb weak automatons, out-evolved and bottom of the food chain, worth thinking about only if they provide some useful resource. Our general policy of disregard and often outright extermination without cause is, beyond appalling, is downright frightful when extrapolated to its effects on ourselves in the future... For those saying butterflies still exist: Yes, they still exist. But I've yet to talk to any person who pays attention to insects and nature, who's lived in the same place for a while, who has not reported a decline in insects of all kinds, from ladybugs, to butterflies, to lightning bugs, to our long-time symbiotic friends the mosquitoes, beetles, even cockroaches. Not just a decline, but a change from "used to be swarming with e.g. ladybugs once a year, to, they still show up in some numbers. We're like a kid left home alone for the summer a little too young and irresponsible just wrecking the house, putting holes in the walls, letting the tub run over, shorting out the electric, leaving the fridge open, throwing food onto the walls, without anyone to stop us.

KMag 6y ago
> our long-time symbiotic friends the mosquitoes, beetles, even cockroaches. I was with you up until there. In what way is our relationship with mosquitoes symbiotic?
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  I had a feeling I'd get a reaction with that one. I can't reply to this query quickly, give me a bit.
  - KMag 6y ago
    Don't get me wrong; I don't hate mosquitoes. I grew up with a wetland in my back yard, and got bitten enough during my wilderness survival merit badge course that I no longer swell or itch when I get bitten. However, my understanding is that there are no species that feed exclusively or even mostly on human-biting mosquitoes. I've been told the environmental impact of human-biting mosquitoes going extinct would be minor, though, dramatically reducing human morbidity and mortality in some poorer countries would have indirect environmental impact.
    - forgotmypw17 6y ago
      Malaria aside, our bodies are fine-tuned for many factors which all trigger many different mechanisms. It's a very complicated system, grown organically and additively over the course of many hundreds of millions of years. As any software maintainers will tell you, even with a system merely several years in existence, anytime you provide different inputs you have not tried before, e.g. taking mosquitoes out of the equation completely, you increase the chance of different, unexpected, output. This is general theory, but I've come across quite a bit of research suggesting that all the parasites we've been living with for millenia are crucial to priming and functioning of our immune system. I haven't seen anything about mosquitoes specifically yet, but I've seen it for leeches, lice, and worms. Mosquitoes are even more prevalent in our biome, so even more likely to be essential. We did not grow up in a sterile world, all these other beings have been growing up alongside us this whole time.
      - jjoonathan 6y ago
        > crucial Overstatement.
        forgotmypw17 6y ago
        Your comment reminds me of someone who put olive oil in their car's engine because "it's all oil", and the manual saying it's crucial that it's the right kind of oil is an "overstatement".
dividedbyzero 6y ago
> We are in the process of birthing, bootstrapping, giving autonomy to beings who are relative to us in power as we are to insects. We can barely even form a concept of just how much of us they can see, and to what extent they know our thoughts and actions. We are nowhere near that. Just getting AI to perform at the level of an actual insect would be a huge achievement (but then, how would we know we're there?), scaling from that will require a whole bunch of big breakthroughs in a whole bunch of fields. But I don't think we'll have to worry at all about a hypothetical AI singularity if we don't get a much better handle on our impact on the world we are a part of, and quick. Because we're in the midst of a mass extinction of geological dimensions, and if our limited understanding of past extinction events is any guide, this will get ugly way beyond any scenario I've seen discussed in the mainstream, and possibly quite abruptly. We're not prepared, and we're hugely vulnerable. Yet we, as a collective, don't seem to "get" this beyond some very abstract recognition that most people brush aside as alarmism or "can't do anything about it anyway". I've talked to a whole bunch of people who, in essence, are kinda happy with all this; mostly warmer weather, less nasty insects, what's not to like? To me, that's wayyy scary.
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  >We are nowhere near that. Just getting AI to perform at the level of an actual insect would be a huge achievement (but then, how would we know we're there?), scaling from that will require a whole bunch of big breakthroughs in a whole bunch of fields. I think if you try to add up in your mind all the interconnected datacenters, cameras, and industry in the world, you can easily arrive at something at least insect-like, definitely bacterium-like.
jfk13 6y ago
As a teenager, I was heavily into butterflies and moths for a while. Now, several decades later, I am back living very close to the same area, and have renewed that interest -- and although I am fortunate to live near some of the top butterfly habitats in the country, it's shocking how few of them I see, compared to how things were just one generation ago.

KMag 6y ago

> our long-time symbiotic friends the mosquitoes, beetles, even cockroaches. I was with you up until there. In what way is our relationship with mosquitoes symbiotic?

forgotmypw17 6y ago
I had a feeling I'd get a reaction with that one. I can't reply to this query quickly, give me a bit.
- KMag 6y ago
  Don't get me wrong; I don't hate mosquitoes. I grew up with a wetland in my back yard, and got bitten enough during my wilderness survival merit badge course that I no longer swell or itch when I get bitten. However, my understanding is that there are no species that feed exclusively or even mostly on human-biting mosquitoes. I've been told the environmental impact of human-biting mosquitoes going extinct would be minor, though, dramatically reducing human morbidity and mortality in some poorer countries would have indirect environmental impact.
  - forgotmypw17 6y ago
    Malaria aside, our bodies are fine-tuned for many factors which all trigger many different mechanisms. It's a very complicated system, grown organically and additively over the course of many hundreds of millions of years. As any software maintainers will tell you, even with a system merely several years in existence, anytime you provide different inputs you have not tried before, e.g. taking mosquitoes out of the equation completely, you increase the chance of different, unexpected, output. This is general theory, but I've come across quite a bit of research suggesting that all the parasites we've been living with for millenia are crucial to priming and functioning of our immune system. I haven't seen anything about mosquitoes specifically yet, but I've seen it for leeches, lice, and worms. Mosquitoes are even more prevalent in our biome, so even more likely to be essential. We did not grow up in a sterile world, all these other beings have been growing up alongside us this whole time.
    - jjoonathan 6y ago
      > crucial Overstatement.
      - forgotmypw17 6y ago
        Your comment reminds me of someone who put olive oil in their car's engine because "it's all oil", and the manual saying it's crucial that it's the right kind of oil is an "overstatement".

dividedbyzero 6y ago

> We are in the process of birthing, bootstrapping, giving autonomy to beings who are relative to us in power as we are to insects. We can barely even form a concept of just how much of us they can see, and to what extent they know our thoughts and actions. We are nowhere near that. Just getting AI to perform at the level of an actual insect would be a huge achievement (but then, how would we know we're there?), scaling from that will require a whole bunch of big breakthroughs in a whole bunch of fields. But I don't think we'll have to worry at all about a hypothetical AI singularity if we don't get a much better handle on our impact on the world we are a part of, and quick. Because we're in the midst of a mass extinction of geological dimensions, and if our limited understanding of past extinction events is any guide, this will get ugly way beyond any scenario I've seen discussed in the mainstream, and possibly quite abruptly. We're not prepared, and we're hugely vulnerable. Yet we, as a collective, don't seem to "get" this beyond some very abstract recognition that most people brush aside as alarmism or "can't do anything about it anyway". I've talked to a whole bunch of people who, in essence, are kinda happy with all this; mostly warmer weather, less nasty insects, what's not to like? To me, that's wayyy scary.

forgotmypw17 6y ago
>We are nowhere near that. Just getting AI to perform at the level of an actual insect would be a huge achievement (but then, how would we know we're there?), scaling from that will require a whole bunch of big breakthroughs in a whole bunch of fields. I think if you try to add up in your mind all the interconnected datacenters, cameras, and industry in the world, you can easily arrive at something at least insect-like, definitely bacterium-like.

jfk13 6y ago

As a teenager, I was heavily into butterflies and moths for a while. Now, several decades later, I am back living very close to the same area, and have renewed that interest -- and although I am fortunate to live near some of the top butterfly habitats in the country, it's shocking how few of them I see, compared to how things were just one generation ago.