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I don't think that's what he's saying. I think he's saying it's not manipulation, but simply a bet. If I buy GameStop at $100 believing I can sell it for $120

I don't think that's what he's saying. I think he's saying it's not manipulation, but simply a bet. If I buy GameStop at $100 believing I can sell it for $120 tomorrow, I am buying that stock honestly believing in its current value so I'm not sure you can call it manipulation any more than another investor hoping to cash in on an expectation that a stock will appreciate. How do you decide whether or not something is manipulation? Everybody invests in stocks expecting them to go up - at what point is it nefarious?

rank0 6y ago
It becomes manipulation when its coordinated. A massive investment forum is blatantly talking about inducing a short squeeze as a collective. This has been advertised non-stop on WSB as some kind of populist uprising for months. All the rhetoric about the little guy sticking it to "the man" is necessary for attracting new buyers and keeping the squeeze alive. In reality, many institutions are also long GME and capitalizing on the squeeze as well. It's a pump-dump...which is illegal.
- Judgmentality 6y ago
  > It becomes manipulation when its coordinated. Does this mean investment firms are inherently manipulative, since they coordinate investments for their investors? They're doing the same thing - investing in bulk, hoping to catch the rising tide. When big investment firms and famous traders make announcements it affects the stock price too, you know. I'm not trying to be obtuse. I just don't see how you can make an objective distinction. I'd argue you could say everyone investing in TSLA is coordinating a pump-and-dump scheme as that stock is insanely overpriced as well.
  - rank0 6y ago
    Yes I also think firms and famous traders manipulate the market. Yes hedge funds can also be manipulative. There is a clear difference in TSLA. People were not coordinated. They have been investing because they believe the company will grow and the stock will appreciate long term. GME is a bunch of people on reddit saying "guys if we all collectively buy, we can induce a short squeeze and artificially pump the stock price for a short period of time. Pour all your money in and diamond hand so we can get rich together." Then as it hits the mainstream, the smart people will cash out, and the dumb people will stay on the train and lose a ton of money. You really don't see the difference?
    - Judgmentality 6y ago
      I don't think any sane person could possibly believe TSLA stock isn't overvalued, and yet people continue to invest and the stock continues to climb. There are multiple forums where people discuss nothing but Tesla, including some focused solely on the stock. Many financial wizards have talked specifically about TSLA and how it is a bad investment, such as David Einhorn, and many of the stockholders have been happy to rally to higher prices because Elon Musk tweets he wants to see a higher number. It seems like both stocks are targets of manipulation to me.
      - rank0 6y ago
        You're just being stubborn. TSLA investors are not relying on a short squeeze. You keep conveniently ignoring the short squeeze. The people who got into GME early are relying on marketing this David v Goliath falsehood so that they can jump off early and make a ton of money in a very short period. I suggest you read up on shorting and pump-dumps. TSLA investors believe the company is changing the world and has enormous growth opportunity.
        Judgmentality 6y ago
        > You're just being stubborn. From my perspective, you're being willfully ignorant. > You keep conveniently ignoring the short squeeze. Are you honestly implying there is no short squeeze for TSLA? David Einhorn has written multiple articles on this very topic. https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/david-einhorn-greenlight-capital-re-tesla-mania-tech-bubble-shorts-2020-11-1029774530 https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/david-einhor...
        rank0 6y ago
        Short squeezes happen organically all the time. Its not that short squeeze = manipulation, its that WSB induced a short squeeze as a coordinated effort. A forum with 2 million members advertised and coordinated a massive purchase of shares. Gamestop's market cap was less than $900m at the time. Gamestop was shorted at %140 of its float. There were daily posts describing how the forum has enough collective capital to hold a significant portion of the company. None of that happened with Tesla. There isn't a community of millions all planning to buy Telsa at the same time for a 2 week period. Its not being championed as a noble cause for retail investors. How are you okay with this happening? The people who actually get hurt are gullible uneducated poor people that were promised a way to get rich quick and stick it to the global elite. Do you feel no sympathy for the victims of this scheme or any other MLM/ponzi "greater fool" bullshit?
stickfigure 6y ago
> at what point is it nefarious? While I agree with your skepticism of the govt trying to stop "manipulation", what happens when this hits scale? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_Civil_War At some point the music will stop and everyone hodling GME is going to lose their collective shirt. Everyone knows it. You can say "it's simply a bet", and you're right except for the simple part.

rank0 6y ago

It becomes manipulation when its coordinated. A massive investment forum is blatantly talking about inducing a short squeeze as a collective. This has been advertised non-stop on WSB as some kind of populist uprising for months. All the rhetoric about the little guy sticking it to "the man" is necessary for attracting new buyers and keeping the squeeze alive. In reality, many institutions are also long GME and capitalizing on the squeeze as well. It's a pump-dump...which is illegal.

Judgmentality 6y ago
> It becomes manipulation when its coordinated. Does this mean investment firms are inherently manipulative, since they coordinate investments for their investors? They're doing the same thing - investing in bulk, hoping to catch the rising tide. When big investment firms and famous traders make announcements it affects the stock price too, you know. I'm not trying to be obtuse. I just don't see how you can make an objective distinction. I'd argue you could say everyone investing in TSLA is coordinating a pump-and-dump scheme as that stock is insanely overpriced as well.
- rank0 6y ago
  Yes I also think firms and famous traders manipulate the market. Yes hedge funds can also be manipulative. There is a clear difference in TSLA. People were not coordinated. They have been investing because they believe the company will grow and the stock will appreciate long term. GME is a bunch of people on reddit saying "guys if we all collectively buy, we can induce a short squeeze and artificially pump the stock price for a short period of time. Pour all your money in and diamond hand so we can get rich together." Then as it hits the mainstream, the smart people will cash out, and the dumb people will stay on the train and lose a ton of money. You really don't see the difference?
  - Judgmentality 6y ago
    I don't think any sane person could possibly believe TSLA stock isn't overvalued, and yet people continue to invest and the stock continues to climb. There are multiple forums where people discuss nothing but Tesla, including some focused solely on the stock. Many financial wizards have talked specifically about TSLA and how it is a bad investment, such as David Einhorn, and many of the stockholders have been happy to rally to higher prices because Elon Musk tweets he wants to see a higher number. It seems like both stocks are targets of manipulation to me.
    - rank0 6y ago
      You're just being stubborn. TSLA investors are not relying on a short squeeze. You keep conveniently ignoring the short squeeze. The people who got into GME early are relying on marketing this David v Goliath falsehood so that they can jump off early and make a ton of money in a very short period. I suggest you read up on shorting and pump-dumps. TSLA investors believe the company is changing the world and has enormous growth opportunity.
      - Judgmentality 6y ago
        > You're just being stubborn. From my perspective, you're being willfully ignorant. > You keep conveniently ignoring the short squeeze. Are you honestly implying there is no short squeeze for TSLA? David Einhorn has written multiple articles on this very topic. https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/david-einhorn-greenlight-capital-re-tesla-mania-tech-bubble-shorts-2020-11-1029774530 https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/david-einhor...
        rank0 6y ago
        Short squeezes happen organically all the time. Its not that short squeeze = manipulation, its that WSB induced a short squeeze as a coordinated effort. A forum with 2 million members advertised and coordinated a massive purchase of shares. Gamestop's market cap was less than $900m at the time. Gamestop was shorted at %140 of its float. There were daily posts describing how the forum has enough collective capital to hold a significant portion of the company. None of that happened with Tesla. There isn't a community of millions all planning to buy Telsa at the same time for a 2 week period. Its not being championed as a noble cause for retail investors. How are you okay with this happening? The people who actually get hurt are gullible uneducated poor people that were promised a way to get rich quick and stick it to the global elite. Do you feel no sympathy for the victims of this scheme or any other MLM/ponzi "greater fool" bullshit?

stickfigure 6y ago

> at what point is it nefarious? While I agree with your skepticism of the govt trying to stop "manipulation", what happens when this hits scale? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_Civil_War At some point the music will stop and everyone hodling GME is going to lose their collective shirt. Everyone knows it. You can say "it's simply a bet", and you're right except for the simple part.