6 ms·

> They definitely referred to themselves as autists/retards in a self-deprecating manner but that's hardly the same thing. I fail to see how 'autist' is any le

by _ifvv 6y ago

> They definitely referred to themselves as autists/retards in a self-deprecating manner but that's hardly the same thing. I fail to see how 'autist' is any less of a slur than e.g. 'trap' or 'gay', when used in the right (wrong) context. It's not a racial slur, but it's quite certainly a slur.

ALittleLight 6y ago
I'm not sure what your point is. There are appropriate and inappropriate ways to use words. Making fun of the neuro-atypicals is inappropriate, joking with likeminded folks in a community built around such is likely appropriate. You've just that word you are complaining about, should you be banned?
- slg 6y ago
  > joking with likeminded folks in a community built around such is likely appropriate. Would you say it is okay for white people to use the n word if there are no Black people around?
  - ALittleLight 6y ago
    I think it depends. Certainly it could be used in a way that conveys racist positions and it could be used in a way that doesn't. Is someone singing along to a rap song a racist? Kids being edgy? I am not saying though that I think use of the term is okay, only that I don't think it should be prohibited either by law or by the pressure of big companies punishing people who say what is forbidden for them to say. I'm perfectly happy with people who make the judgement that they may never say certain words. I'm not happy with people telling others what they can or cannot say.
  - djbebs 6y ago
    Whats wrong with using that word even if black people are around? If listening to a word causes you so much trouble, thats your problem as the listener, and its up to you to deal with it.
  - atypicaluser 6y ago
    Yes. And even with them around. All depends on the context and the willingness to get one's nose bopped. I would, for example, encourage an actor to use overly offensive expletives, even repeating them ad nauseam in the presence of their fellow actors so they feel more comfortable using such words in a production dealing with racial strife, historical storytelling or what have you. No word is so beyond the pale it must be Voldemorted.
- vbsteven 6y ago
  Joking among friends using slurs is not appropriate in my eyes. Doesn’t matter if the slur is based on neurodiversity, race, age, gender or something else.
  - DiggyJohnson 6y ago
    I just cannot understand this take, genuinely. How can you know what is a slur and what is not when judging the way others communicate in their relationships? What if it’s a nickname from childhood? What if...anything really? How on earth would you take action on this point, besides teaching our children to be kind, thoughtful, and curious.
    - joubert 6y ago
      > How can you know what is a slur and what is not when judging the way others communicate in their relationships? What if it’s a nickname from childhood? How can you know what is an insult and what is not when judging the way others communicate in their relationships? What if it’s a nickname from childhood? How can you know what is a threat and what is not when judging the way others communicate in their relationships? What if it’s a nickname from childhood?
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - Kranar 6y ago
    People of various backgrounds often refer to themselves or close friends of theirs by what would otherwise be offensive slurs. That goes for black people, LGBT people, women, Asians, Jews, heck even white people often refer to themselves or another white person they are close with using a slur. There is actually evidence that people who refer to one another using slurs that would otherwise be offensive do so to strengthen social bonds with each other and there's some interesting game theory for why this is the case. It's also quite common among comedians and other entertainers to make fun of their own ethnicity using slurs or use slurs in various performances. You personally may not find it appropriate and that's a subjective point of view that you are entitled to have, but consider whether you have a good rational justification for it or whether you are exercising too much caution to the point that you are getting offended on behalf of others even when those others are not themselves offended.
- _ifvv 6y ago
  > You've just that word you are complaining about, should you be banned? The commenting guidelines state: Be kind. Don't be snarky. [...] Don't sneer. Regardless, I will indulge your curiosity. 1) There are certainly other terms in use on WSB that one could take offense to. I personally find this one to be particularly problematic. (The fact that I am myself autistic probably plays a big role in this ;)) 2) I have posted many comments here on HN, and as far as I know this one and the one you replied to are the only ones I've posted on the topic of slurs. I fail to see why I should be banned over this discussion.
  - ALittleLight 6y ago
    I don't mean that comment to be snarky or sneering and I apologize if it came off as unkind. What I mean to convey with that comment is that clearly you believe there are acceptable uses of the word. In other words, you don't think that every use of the word should be prohibited. Once we've reached that point it seems like a negotiation. Why would it be wrong to say sometimes and not wrong other times? My intuition here is that this is tied to whether the word is used with intent to offend or harass someone. In your case, you weren't using the word that way, and I would argue that the same applies largely to uses of the term on wallstreetbets.
blackearl 6y ago
It makes no sense to pick a specific word and draw an arbitrary line. You can be far more offensive without any "slurs" by asking if one's mother was frequently drunk while pregnant.
- _ifvv 6y ago
  Yes, and I see no problems with being offensive in a joking or ironic manner (as seems to be the case on WSB). However, when you decide to use a slur to do so, you are deciding to insult an entire subgroup of the population as collateral damage.
  - ACow_Adonis 6y ago
    isn't the above poster's example explicitly insulting to everyone who's mother was drunk repeatedly/for long periods of time while pregnant? and everyone with foetal alcohol syndrome?
    - capableweb 6y ago
      No? The insult is to the person you say "was your mother frequently drunk while pregnant with you", not everyone else who might fit that particular profile. If what you're saying would be true, then calling someone an idiot would be an insult to all the idiots out there. They are clearly not the target of the insult, the person you say it to is the insulted.
      - TeMPOraL 6y ago
        That's the point, though. WSB folks aren't insulting whole classes of people either, they're mostly insulting each other, in a playful way.
        Guthur 6y ago
        And more importantly why have we ever allowed it to get so far. "oh, he hurt my feelings, stop him" It's fucking moronic for us to have demonised speech like this, we should have held on to the old "sticks and stones" because frankly this Orwellian alternative is bonkers.
RubberbandSoul 6y ago
Spillover from medical terms is very common. You sometimes hear someone being called a "psycho" or a "sociopath" but you don't make the assumption that the accuser is a trained psychiatrist. "Idiot" used to be a medical condition, someone suffering from idiocy. "Retard"; someone whose mental development had been retarded and remained in a childhood state into adulthood. These words are not supposed to be taken literally (when used colloquially) but to suggest that the person in question displays signs of the medical condition. I guess we could try to label this as misuse of the terms and try to end the practice, but where would that lead us? "Bob is double plus ungood at thinking"?
- marcus_holmes 6y ago
  It's known as the "Euphemism Treadmill" [0]. I remember "spastic" being a playground insult having been a medical term a couple decades previously. [0] http://englishcowpath.blogspot.com/2011/06/euphemism-treadmill-replacing-r-word.html http://englishcowpath.blogspot.com/2011/06/euphemism-treadmi...
- grumple 6y ago
  You make some good points, I think. The extrapolation I’d make is that even that last statement is offensive. As some say, “if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all”. There’s a culture of decency, and it is opposed to a culture of liberty. Which isn’t to say we shouldn’t have decency, but that everything should be kept in balance. We shouldn’t embrace Gilead’s “freedom from”.
  - smichel17 6y ago
    I'm not quite sure how these are inherently in conflict. It seems like a community might allow the use of slurs as insults while also discouraging insults in general. In different words, "Please be nice to each other. We don't ban for the use of any particular words, but we do ban for disparaging others." I could easily imagine a policy like this in, say, a linguistics forum, where it's totally allowed to discuss the usage of slurs, as long as they're not directed at someone.
globular-toast 6y ago
It's not a slur. It's just part of their humour. Are we into telling people what they can and can't say within their own private groups now?
ng12 6y ago
I am entirely comfortable with the fact that some people on the internet choose to use words I don't like.

by _ifvv 6y ago

ALittleLight 6y ago

I'm not sure what your point is. There are appropriate and inappropriate ways to use words. Making fun of the neuro-atypicals is inappropriate, joking with likeminded folks in a community built around such is likely appropriate. You've just that word you are complaining about, should you be banned?

slg 6y ago
> joking with likeminded folks in a community built around such is likely appropriate. Would you say it is okay for white people to use the n word if there are no Black people around?
- ALittleLight 6y ago
  I think it depends. Certainly it could be used in a way that conveys racist positions and it could be used in a way that doesn't. Is someone singing along to a rap song a racist? Kids being edgy? I am not saying though that I think use of the term is okay, only that I don't think it should be prohibited either by law or by the pressure of big companies punishing people who say what is forbidden for them to say. I'm perfectly happy with people who make the judgement that they may never say certain words. I'm not happy with people telling others what they can or cannot say.
- djbebs 6y ago
  Whats wrong with using that word even if black people are around? If listening to a word causes you so much trouble, thats your problem as the listener, and its up to you to deal with it.
- atypicaluser 6y ago
  Yes. And even with them around. All depends on the context and the willingness to get one's nose bopped. I would, for example, encourage an actor to use overly offensive expletives, even repeating them ad nauseam in the presence of their fellow actors so they feel more comfortable using such words in a production dealing with racial strife, historical storytelling or what have you. No word is so beyond the pale it must be Voldemorted.
vbsteven 6y ago
Joking among friends using slurs is not appropriate in my eyes. Doesn’t matter if the slur is based on neurodiversity, race, age, gender or something else.
- DiggyJohnson 6y ago
  I just cannot understand this take, genuinely. How can you know what is a slur and what is not when judging the way others communicate in their relationships? What if it’s a nickname from childhood? What if...anything really? How on earth would you take action on this point, besides teaching our children to be kind, thoughtful, and curious.
  - joubert 6y ago
    > How can you know what is a slur and what is not when judging the way others communicate in their relationships? What if it’s a nickname from childhood? How can you know what is an insult and what is not when judging the way others communicate in their relationships? What if it’s a nickname from childhood? How can you know what is a threat and what is not when judging the way others communicate in their relationships? What if it’s a nickname from childhood?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- Kranar 6y ago
  People of various backgrounds often refer to themselves or close friends of theirs by what would otherwise be offensive slurs. That goes for black people, LGBT people, women, Asians, Jews, heck even white people often refer to themselves or another white person they are close with using a slur. There is actually evidence that people who refer to one another using slurs that would otherwise be offensive do so to strengthen social bonds with each other and there's some interesting game theory for why this is the case. It's also quite common among comedians and other entertainers to make fun of their own ethnicity using slurs or use slurs in various performances. You personally may not find it appropriate and that's a subjective point of view that you are entitled to have, but consider whether you have a good rational justification for it or whether you are exercising too much caution to the point that you are getting offended on behalf of others even when those others are not themselves offended.
_ifvv 6y ago
> You've just that word you are complaining about, should you be banned? The commenting guidelines state: Be kind. Don't be snarky. [...] Don't sneer. Regardless, I will indulge your curiosity. 1) There are certainly other terms in use on WSB that one could take offense to. I personally find this one to be particularly problematic. (The fact that I am myself autistic probably plays a big role in this ;)) 2) I have posted many comments here on HN, and as far as I know this one and the one you replied to are the only ones I've posted on the topic of slurs. I fail to see why I should be banned over this discussion.
- ALittleLight 6y ago
  I don't mean that comment to be snarky or sneering and I apologize if it came off as unkind. What I mean to convey with that comment is that clearly you believe there are acceptable uses of the word. In other words, you don't think that every use of the word should be prohibited. Once we've reached that point it seems like a negotiation. Why would it be wrong to say sometimes and not wrong other times? My intuition here is that this is tied to whether the word is used with intent to offend or harass someone. In your case, you weren't using the word that way, and I would argue that the same applies largely to uses of the term on wallstreetbets.

blackearl 6y ago

It makes no sense to pick a specific word and draw an arbitrary line. You can be far more offensive without any "slurs" by asking if one's mother was frequently drunk while pregnant.

_ifvv 6y ago
Yes, and I see no problems with being offensive in a joking or ironic manner (as seems to be the case on WSB). However, when you decide to use a slur to do so, you are deciding to insult an entire subgroup of the population as collateral damage.
- ACow_Adonis 6y ago
  isn't the above poster's example explicitly insulting to everyone who's mother was drunk repeatedly/for long periods of time while pregnant? and everyone with foetal alcohol syndrome?
  - capableweb 6y ago
    No? The insult is to the person you say "was your mother frequently drunk while pregnant with you", not everyone else who might fit that particular profile. If what you're saying would be true, then calling someone an idiot would be an insult to all the idiots out there. They are clearly not the target of the insult, the person you say it to is the insulted.
    - TeMPOraL 6y ago
      That's the point, though. WSB folks aren't insulting whole classes of people either, they're mostly insulting each other, in a playful way.
      - Guthur 6y ago
        And more importantly why have we ever allowed it to get so far. "oh, he hurt my feelings, stop him" It's fucking moronic for us to have demonised speech like this, we should have held on to the old "sticks and stones" because frankly this Orwellian alternative is bonkers.

RubberbandSoul 6y ago

Spillover from medical terms is very common. You sometimes hear someone being called a "psycho" or a "sociopath" but you don't make the assumption that the accuser is a trained psychiatrist. "Idiot" used to be a medical condition, someone suffering from idiocy. "Retard"; someone whose mental development had been retarded and remained in a childhood state into adulthood. These words are not supposed to be taken literally (when used colloquially) but to suggest that the person in question displays signs of the medical condition. I guess we could try to label this as misuse of the terms and try to end the practice, but where would that lead us? "Bob is double plus ungood at thinking"?

marcus_holmes 6y ago
It's known as the "Euphemism Treadmill" [0]. I remember "spastic" being a playground insult having been a medical term a couple decades previously. [0] http://englishcowpath.blogspot.com/2011/06/euphemism-treadmill-replacing-r-word.html http://englishcowpath.blogspot.com/2011/06/euphemism-treadmi...
grumple 6y ago
You make some good points, I think. The extrapolation I’d make is that even that last statement is offensive. As some say, “if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all”. There’s a culture of decency, and it is opposed to a culture of liberty. Which isn’t to say we shouldn’t have decency, but that everything should be kept in balance. We shouldn’t embrace Gilead’s “freedom from”.
- smichel17 6y ago
  I'm not quite sure how these are inherently in conflict. It seems like a community might allow the use of slurs as insults while also discouraging insults in general. In different words, "Please be nice to each other. We don't ban for the use of any particular words, but we do ban for disparaging others." I could easily imagine a policy like this in, say, a linguistics forum, where it's totally allowed to discuss the usage of slurs, as long as they're not directed at someone.

globular-toast 6y ago

It's not a slur. It's just part of their humour. Are we into telling people what they can and can't say within their own private groups now?

ng12 6y ago

I am entirely comfortable with the fact that some people on the internet choose to use words I don't like.