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so you're okay with market manipulation? If value isn't real there should be no rules right?

by rank0 6y ago

Judgmentality 6y ago
I don't think that's what he's saying. I think he's saying it's not manipulation, but simply a bet. If I buy GameStop at $100 believing I can sell it for $120 tomorrow, I am buying that stock honestly believing in its current value so I'm not sure you can call it manipulation any more than another investor hoping to cash in on an expectation that a stock will appreciate. How do you decide whether or not something is manipulation? Everybody invests in stocks expecting them to go up - at what point is it nefarious?
- rank0 6y ago
  It becomes manipulation when its coordinated. A massive investment forum is blatantly talking about inducing a short squeeze as a collective. This has been advertised non-stop on WSB as some kind of populist uprising for months. All the rhetoric about the little guy sticking it to "the man" is necessary for attracting new buyers and keeping the squeeze alive. In reality, many institutions are also long GME and capitalizing on the squeeze as well. It's a pump-dump...which is illegal.
  - Judgmentality 6y ago
    > It becomes manipulation when its coordinated. Does this mean investment firms are inherently manipulative, since they coordinate investments for their investors? They're doing the same thing - investing in bulk, hoping to catch the rising tide. When big investment firms and famous traders make announcements it affects the stock price too, you know. I'm not trying to be obtuse. I just don't see how you can make an objective distinction. I'd argue you could say everyone investing in TSLA is coordinating a pump-and-dump scheme as that stock is insanely overpriced as well.
    - rank0 6y ago
      Yes I also think firms and famous traders manipulate the market. Yes hedge funds can also be manipulative. There is a clear difference in TSLA. People were not coordinated. They have been investing because they believe the company will grow and the stock will appreciate long term. GME is a bunch of people on reddit saying "guys if we all collectively buy, we can induce a short squeeze and artificially pump the stock price for a short period of time. Pour all your money in and diamond hand so we can get rich together." Then as it hits the mainstream, the smart people will cash out, and the dumb people will stay on the train and lose a ton of money. You really don't see the difference?
      - Judgmentality 6y ago
        I don't think any sane person could possibly believe TSLA stock isn't overvalued, and yet people continue to invest and the stock continues to climb. There are multiple forums where people discuss nothing but Tesla, including some focused solely on the stock. Many financial wizards have talked specifically about TSLA and how it is a bad investment, such as David Einhorn, and many of the stockholders have been happy to rally to higher prices because Elon Musk tweets he wants to see a higher number. It seems like both stocks are targets of manipulation to me.
        rank0 6y ago
        You're just being stubborn. TSLA investors are not relying on a short squeeze. You keep conveniently ignoring the short squeeze. The people who got into GME early are relying on marketing this David v Goliath falsehood so that they can jump off early and make a ton of money in a very short period. I suggest you read up on shorting and pump-dumps. TSLA investors believe the company is changing the world and has enormous growth opportunity.
        Judgmentality 6y ago
        > You're just being stubborn. From my perspective, you're being willfully ignorant. > You keep conveniently ignoring the short squeeze. Are you honestly implying there is no short squeeze for TSLA? David Einhorn has written multiple articles on this very topic. https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/david-einhorn-greenlight-capital-re-tesla-mania-tech-bubble-shorts-2020-11-1029774530 https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/david-einhor...
- stickfigure 6y ago
  > at what point is it nefarious? While I agree with your skepticism of the govt trying to stop "manipulation", what happens when this hits scale? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_Civil_War At some point the music will stop and everyone hodling GME is going to lose their collective shirt. Everyone knows it. You can say "it's simply a bet", and you're right except for the simple part.
chillacy 6y ago
I don't see anything in the parent comment that would imply that they were "okay with market manipulation" and "if value isn't real there should be no rules".
- rank0 6y ago
  He's saying there's no such thing as fundamental value, and as a result, collectively pumping a stock to induce a short squeeze is no different that spotting an undervalued company. Anyone with half a brain should be able to recognize that GME moving from a 900m market cap to a 30b market cap in a few weeks is completely nonsensical.
  - chillacy 6y ago
    I mean, he literally just said that money is a construct, and maybe implied that fundamental value is too, which is sort of a reductive argument, but going from that to "market manipulation" and "there should be no real rules" is a strawman argument.

so you're okay with market manipulation? If value isn't real there should be no rules right?

by rank0 6y ago

so you're okay with market manipulation? If value isn't real there should be no rules right?

I don't think that's what he's saying. I think he's saying it's not manipulation, but simply a bet. If I buy GameStop at $100 believing I can sell it for $120 tomorrow, I am buying that stock honestly believing in its current value so I'm not sure you can call it manipulation any more than another investor hoping to cash in on an expectation that a stock will appreciate. How do you decide whether or not something is manipulation? Everybody invests in stocks expecting them to go up - at what point is it nefarious?

rank0 6y ago
It becomes manipulation when its coordinated. A massive investment forum is blatantly talking about inducing a short squeeze as a collective. This has been advertised non-stop on WSB as some kind of populist uprising for months. All the rhetoric about the little guy sticking it to "the man" is necessary for attracting new buyers and keeping the squeeze alive. In reality, many institutions are also long GME and capitalizing on the squeeze as well. It's a pump-dump...which is illegal.
- Judgmentality 6y ago
  > It becomes manipulation when its coordinated. Does this mean investment firms are inherently manipulative, since they coordinate investments for their investors? They're doing the same thing - investing in bulk, hoping to catch the rising tide. When big investment firms and famous traders make announcements it affects the stock price too, you know. I'm not trying to be obtuse. I just don't see how you can make an objective distinction. I'd argue you could say everyone investing in TSLA is coordinating a pump-and-dump scheme as that stock is insanely overpriced as well.
  - rank0 6y ago
    Yes I also think firms and famous traders manipulate the market. Yes hedge funds can also be manipulative. There is a clear difference in TSLA. People were not coordinated. They have been investing because they believe the company will grow and the stock will appreciate long term. GME is a bunch of people on reddit saying "guys if we all collectively buy, we can induce a short squeeze and artificially pump the stock price for a short period of time. Pour all your money in and diamond hand so we can get rich together." Then as it hits the mainstream, the smart people will cash out, and the dumb people will stay on the train and lose a ton of money. You really don't see the difference?
    - Judgmentality 6y ago
      I don't think any sane person could possibly believe TSLA stock isn't overvalued, and yet people continue to invest and the stock continues to climb. There are multiple forums where people discuss nothing but Tesla, including some focused solely on the stock. Many financial wizards have talked specifically about TSLA and how it is a bad investment, such as David Einhorn, and many of the stockholders have been happy to rally to higher prices because Elon Musk tweets he wants to see a higher number. It seems like both stocks are targets of manipulation to me.
      - rank0 6y ago
        You're just being stubborn. TSLA investors are not relying on a short squeeze. You keep conveniently ignoring the short squeeze. The people who got into GME early are relying on marketing this David v Goliath falsehood so that they can jump off early and make a ton of money in a very short period. I suggest you read up on shorting and pump-dumps. TSLA investors believe the company is changing the world and has enormous growth opportunity.
        Judgmentality 6y ago
        > You're just being stubborn. From my perspective, you're being willfully ignorant. > You keep conveniently ignoring the short squeeze. Are you honestly implying there is no short squeeze for TSLA? David Einhorn has written multiple articles on this very topic. https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/david-einhorn-greenlight-capital-re-tesla-mania-tech-bubble-shorts-2020-11-1029774530 https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/david-einhor...
stickfigure 6y ago
> at what point is it nefarious? While I agree with your skepticism of the govt trying to stop "manipulation", what happens when this hits scale? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_Civil_War At some point the music will stop and everyone hodling GME is going to lose their collective shirt. Everyone knows it. You can say "it's simply a bet", and you're right except for the simple part.

chillacy 6y ago

I don't see anything in the parent comment that would imply that they were "okay with market manipulation" and "if value isn't real there should be no rules".

rank0 6y ago
He's saying there's no such thing as fundamental value, and as a result, collectively pumping a stock to induce a short squeeze is no different that spotting an undervalued company. Anyone with half a brain should be able to recognize that GME moving from a 900m market cap to a 30b market cap in a few weeks is completely nonsensical.
- chillacy 6y ago
  I mean, he literally just said that money is a construct, and maybe implied that fundamental value is too, which is sort of a reductive argument, but going from that to "market manipulation" and "there should be no real rules" is a strawman argument.