5 ms·

Human MRIs are also pretty expensive, and human MRI machines are generally booked solid. MRI machines cost a lot and also cost a lot to operate.

Gibbon1 6y ago
Last time looked at the costs of imaging I got the impression that there are a monopoly and other captive market effects at work. You'll hear medical professionals claim imaging is expensive because the machines are expensive. Which just says to me that medical professionals aren't accountants. Consider a dental w-ray machine. $15-30k. That's the cost of Prius used as a Taxi. You don't pay a couple dollars for a 15 minute Taxi cab ride. An MRI machine, I forget how much those cost. But whatever, lets compare one with a modern passenger airliner. Cost is about equivalent on a 'per passenger' basis. And an airliner requires highly trained professionals to keep it running.
- s1artibartfast 6y ago
  A new 787 is 200 million and carries up to 300 people and has a working life of 44,000 flights, for a total of 13 million people trips. A new MRI costs ~3 million, has an operational life of 10 years, performs 5000 scans per year, for a total 50,000 people trips. The people operating the MRI machine are probably payed more than anyone working on the airplane and take vastly more time per passenger.
  - phonon 6y ago
    > A new MRI costs ~3 million, You seem to be off by a factor of 5 or 10. https://info.blockimaging.com/bid/92623/MRI-Machine-Cost-and-Price-Guide https://info.blockimaging.com/bid/92623/MRI-Machine-Cost-and...
    - s1artibartfast 6y ago
      I was quoting the number for a modern 3 tesla MRI machines, which would fall into the 500k+ range on your link. These are high end but not necessarily rare. For example, UCSF has 4 of these machines. These can easily be on the order of 3 million+ with installation https://www.pasadenanow.com/main/lab-in-emerging-biomedical-corridor-installs-3-million-high-tech-magnet/ https://www.pasadenanow.com/main/lab-in-emerging-biomedical-... Here is a link for a 7 million suite to house one of the machines https://www.dignityhealth.org/sacramento/about-us/press-center/newbiplaneangiographysuiteandwidebore3teslamri https://www.dignityhealth.org/sacramento/about-us/press-cent... While costs for these machines are going down, even more expensive 7 and 10 Tesla machines are starting to be installed, going up to $14 million https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07182-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07182-7
      - phonon 6y ago
        3 T machines are not necessarily better, it depends on what they're trying to look at, getter a sharper image of noise is not useful. Anyway, your estimate seems to be way off, basing it on a 6 year old puff piece for a cutting edge model that was deployed in a lab. The cost for a typical new MRI is more like $500k.
        s1artibartfast 6y ago
        Do have any personal info here, because the first ten articles I read were up there and your article doesn’t negate it
        phonon 6y ago
        Doesn't negate what? If you ask "How much does a car cost?" The answer is not "Here are some articles about people buying Lamborghinis that cost $250,000". Most people are using a middle of the road 1.5 T machine. https://lbnmedical.com/how-much-does-an-mri-machine-cost/ https://lbnmedical.com/how-much-does-an-mri-machine-cost/
        s1artibartfast 6y ago
        I never said I was talking about averages ct machines any more than a brand new 787-9 is the average plane. You can get a 20 year 737 for a lot less than 200mil, and is probably closer to the average. If your point is that MRIs less than 3T exist, I agree. If your point is that cheaper MRI exist, I agree. If your point is that nobody has spent 3 mil on a CT, then I disagree. A link showing the price of used machines 10-15 years old isn’t going to change that.
  - rtkwe 6y ago
    MRIs are principally taken by technicians then a doctor will interpret them but the bulk of the operation isn't done by doctors and the techs are well paid but are paid less than a first year commercial airline pilot. IF you include all the maintenance and support around in airplane and around an MRI machine I think the airplane will be even further ahead. [0] https://www.careerexplorer.com/careers/magnetic-resonance-imaging-technologist/salary/ https://www.careerexplorer.com/careers/magnetic-resonance-im...
    - s1artibartfast 6y ago
      Thanks, I learned something today. I think the point still stands if you include the time of the radiologist and tech, capital and employment costs for MRI in the US are substantial. I agree that it is a very strange comparison between MRI and a plane, I was just chiming in on the capital and employment cost for each could be comparable on a per trip basis, not that MRI prices are where they should be. In my personal opinion, a major problem with US healthcare is a race to the top, where the newest and best care is sought irrespective of the price. A judgement call needs to made somewhere on cost/marginal benefit, and post-procedure reimbursement debates is the worst way to do it. CT machines can cost between 250K and 14 million, as I mentioned in a sibling post. Similarly, MRI costs can range from $170-$5,500 [1]. In the current system, almost nobody is incentivized to keep costs down. Doctors and insured patients want the best care, as costs are externalized to the insurance pool. Insurance companies want to maximize costs, because their profit margin is limited by a % of spending. https://turquoise.health/service_offerings?q=MRI&location=90210&sort=cost&page=1&distance= https://turquoise.health/service_offerings?q=MRI&location=90...
- IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
  You are on the money. My dog had MRIs and ultrasound recently. Each event was $700-$900 a pop. I take my dog for routine full checkup that includes MRI and Ultrasound whenever I travel to south america. They use the same machine brand as in the US, with same diagnostics. I pay $50-$85 over there for the same tests. Vets over in SA (not business owners) make about $500-$1000 USD per month. It would seem the huge cost is not from the machine. Its the labor. I think these are the 2 key differences: a) Based on my understanding, getting licensed in this SA country is a nonissue. There is in fact an oversupply of vets because its easy to practice. b) The price for the vet studies is on the 2k-5k year for a private U. Compare with US Colleges. Regarding quality: Our vet in SA diagnosed my dog after seeing the US diagnostic test reports , over whatsapp. She was correct on her diagnosis from the start. It took 4 different US vets, 3 separate facilities, 4 days of hospital bills ($5000) to arrive at the same conclusion that I got from a whatsapp. It is not the machine problem. It is a captive market with huge costs related to labor.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

Gibbon1 6y ago

Last time looked at the costs of imaging I got the impression that there are a monopoly and other captive market effects at work. You'll hear medical professionals claim imaging is expensive because the machines are expensive. Which just says to me that medical professionals aren't accountants. Consider a dental w-ray machine. $15-30k. That's the cost of Prius used as a Taxi. You don't pay a couple dollars for a 15 minute Taxi cab ride. An MRI machine, I forget how much those cost. But whatever, lets compare one with a modern passenger airliner. Cost is about equivalent on a 'per passenger' basis. And an airliner requires highly trained professionals to keep it running.

s1artibartfast 6y ago
A new 787 is 200 million and carries up to 300 people and has a working life of 44,000 flights, for a total of 13 million people trips. A new MRI costs ~3 million, has an operational life of 10 years, performs 5000 scans per year, for a total 50,000 people trips. The people operating the MRI machine are probably payed more than anyone working on the airplane and take vastly more time per passenger.
- phonon 6y ago
  > A new MRI costs ~3 million, You seem to be off by a factor of 5 or 10. https://info.blockimaging.com/bid/92623/MRI-Machine-Cost-and-Price-Guide https://info.blockimaging.com/bid/92623/MRI-Machine-Cost-and...
  - s1artibartfast 6y ago
    I was quoting the number for a modern 3 tesla MRI machines, which would fall into the 500k+ range on your link. These are high end but not necessarily rare. For example, UCSF has 4 of these machines. These can easily be on the order of 3 million+ with installation https://www.pasadenanow.com/main/lab-in-emerging-biomedical-corridor-installs-3-million-high-tech-magnet/ https://www.pasadenanow.com/main/lab-in-emerging-biomedical-... Here is a link for a 7 million suite to house one of the machines https://www.dignityhealth.org/sacramento/about-us/press-center/newbiplaneangiographysuiteandwidebore3teslamri https://www.dignityhealth.org/sacramento/about-us/press-cent... While costs for these machines are going down, even more expensive 7 and 10 Tesla machines are starting to be installed, going up to $14 million https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07182-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07182-7
    - phonon 6y ago
      3 T machines are not necessarily better, it depends on what they're trying to look at, getter a sharper image of noise is not useful. Anyway, your estimate seems to be way off, basing it on a 6 year old puff piece for a cutting edge model that was deployed in a lab. The cost for a typical new MRI is more like $500k.
      - s1artibartfast 6y ago
        Do have any personal info here, because the first ten articles I read were up there and your article doesn’t negate it
        phonon 6y ago
        Doesn't negate what? If you ask "How much does a car cost?" The answer is not "Here are some articles about people buying Lamborghinis that cost $250,000". Most people are using a middle of the road 1.5 T machine. https://lbnmedical.com/how-much-does-an-mri-machine-cost/ https://lbnmedical.com/how-much-does-an-mri-machine-cost/
        s1artibartfast 6y ago
        I never said I was talking about averages ct machines any more than a brand new 787-9 is the average plane. You can get a 20 year 737 for a lot less than 200mil, and is probably closer to the average. If your point is that MRIs less than 3T exist, I agree. If your point is that cheaper MRI exist, I agree. If your point is that nobody has spent 3 mil on a CT, then I disagree. A link showing the price of used machines 10-15 years old isn’t going to change that.
- rtkwe 6y ago
  MRIs are principally taken by technicians then a doctor will interpret them but the bulk of the operation isn't done by doctors and the techs are well paid but are paid less than a first year commercial airline pilot. IF you include all the maintenance and support around in airplane and around an MRI machine I think the airplane will be even further ahead. [0] https://www.careerexplorer.com/careers/magnetic-resonance-imaging-technologist/salary/ https://www.careerexplorer.com/careers/magnetic-resonance-im...
  - s1artibartfast 6y ago
    Thanks, I learned something today. I think the point still stands if you include the time of the radiologist and tech, capital and employment costs for MRI in the US are substantial. I agree that it is a very strange comparison between MRI and a plane, I was just chiming in on the capital and employment cost for each could be comparable on a per trip basis, not that MRI prices are where they should be. In my personal opinion, a major problem with US healthcare is a race to the top, where the newest and best care is sought irrespective of the price. A judgement call needs to made somewhere on cost/marginal benefit, and post-procedure reimbursement debates is the worst way to do it. CT machines can cost between 250K and 14 million, as I mentioned in a sibling post. Similarly, MRI costs can range from $170-$5,500 [1]. In the current system, almost nobody is incentivized to keep costs down. Doctors and insured patients want the best care, as costs are externalized to the insurance pool. Insurance companies want to maximize costs, because their profit margin is limited by a % of spending. https://turquoise.health/service_offerings?q=MRI&location=90210&sort=cost&page=1&distance= https://turquoise.health/service_offerings?q=MRI&location=90...
IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
You are on the money. My dog had MRIs and ultrasound recently. Each event was $700-$900 a pop. I take my dog for routine full checkup that includes MRI and Ultrasound whenever I travel to south america. They use the same machine brand as in the US, with same diagnostics. I pay $50-$85 over there for the same tests. Vets over in SA (not business owners) make about $500-$1000 USD per month. It would seem the huge cost is not from the machine. Its the labor. I think these are the 2 key differences: a) Based on my understanding, getting licensed in this SA country is a nonissue. There is in fact an oversupply of vets because its easy to practice. b) The price for the vet studies is on the 2k-5k year for a private U. Compare with US Colleges. Regarding quality: Our vet in SA diagnosed my dog after seeing the US diagnostic test reports , over whatsapp. She was correct on her diagnosis from the start. It took 4 different US vets, 3 separate facilities, 4 days of hospital bills ($5000) to arrive at the same conclusion that I got from a whatsapp. It is not the machine problem. It is a captive market with huge costs related to labor.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]