7 ms·

Whatever markups are there are not linear, interestingly. I had to get an MRI from a vet hospital in the past. It was still over a thousand bucks, and in the r

Whatever markups are there are not linear, interestingly. I had to get an MRI from a vet hospital in the past. It was still over a thousand bucks, and in the range of quotes I'd gotten for human MRIs before. I wonder what similar stitches in an urgent care vs a primary care office vs an ER for a human would cost.

rtkwe 6y ago
Part of that is probably the lower volume, so they have to amortize the costs over fewer procedures. Most pet injuries don't need an MRI or if the injury/illness is that bad the euthanasia or palliative only option is more considered.
- dodobirdlord 6y ago
  Human MRIs are also pretty expensive, and human MRI machines are generally booked solid. MRI machines cost a lot and also cost a lot to operate.
  - Gibbon1 6y ago
    Last time looked at the costs of imaging I got the impression that there are a monopoly and other captive market effects at work. You'll hear medical professionals claim imaging is expensive because the machines are expensive. Which just says to me that medical professionals aren't accountants. Consider a dental w-ray machine. $15-30k. That's the cost of Prius used as a Taxi. You don't pay a couple dollars for a 15 minute Taxi cab ride. An MRI machine, I forget how much those cost. But whatever, lets compare one with a modern passenger airliner. Cost is about equivalent on a 'per passenger' basis. And an airliner requires highly trained professionals to keep it running.
    - s1artibartfast 6y ago
      A new 787 is 200 million and carries up to 300 people and has a working life of 44,000 flights, for a total of 13 million people trips. A new MRI costs ~3 million, has an operational life of 10 years, performs 5000 scans per year, for a total 50,000 people trips. The people operating the MRI machine are probably payed more than anyone working on the airplane and take vastly more time per passenger.
      - phonon 6y ago
        > A new MRI costs ~3 million, You seem to be off by a factor of 5 or 10. https://info.blockimaging.com/bid/92623/MRI-Machine-Cost-and-Price-Guide https://info.blockimaging.com/bid/92623/MRI-Machine-Cost-and...
        s1artibartfast 6y ago
        I was quoting the number for a modern 3 tesla MRI machines, which would fall into the 500k+ range on your link. These are high end but not necessarily rare. For example, UCSF has 4 of these machines. These can easily be on the order of 3 million+ with installation https://www.pasadenanow.com/main/lab-in-emerging-biomedical-corridor-installs-3-million-high-tech-magnet/ https://www.pasadenanow.com/main/lab-in-emerging-biomedical-... Here is a link for a 7 million suite to house one of the machines https://www.dignityhealth.org/sacramento/about-us/press-center/newbiplaneangiographysuiteandwidebore3teslamri https://www.dignityhealth.org/sacramento/about-us/press-cent... While costs for these machines are going down, even more expensive 7 and 10 Tesla machines are starting to be installed, going up to $14 million https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07182-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07182-7
        phonon 6y ago
        3 T machines are not necessarily better, it depends on what they're trying to look at, getter a sharper image of noise is not useful. Anyway, your estimate seems to be way off, basing it on a 6 year old puff piece for a cutting edge model that was deployed in a lab. The cost for a typical new MRI is more like $500k.
        s1artibartfast 6y ago
        Do have any personal info here, because the first ten articles I read were up there and your article doesn’t negate it
        phonon 6y ago
    - IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
      You are on the money. My dog had MRIs and ultrasound recently. Each event was $700-$900 a pop. I take my dog for routine full checkup that includes MRI and Ultrasound whenever I travel to south america. They use the same machine brand as in the US, with same diagnostics. I pay $50-$85 over there for the same tests. Vets over in SA (not business owners) make about $500-$1000 USD per month. It would seem the huge cost is not from the machine. Its the labor. I think these are the 2 key differences: a) Based on my understanding, getting licensed in this SA country is a nonissue. There is in fact an oversupply of vets because its easy to practice. b) The price for the vet studies is on the 2k-5k year for a private U. Compare with US Colleges. Regarding quality: Our vet in SA diagnosed my dog after seeing the US diagnostic test reports , over whatsapp. She was correct on her diagnosis from the start. It took 4 different US vets, 3 separate facilities, 4 days of hospital bills ($5000) to arrive at the same conclusion that I got from a whatsapp. It is not the machine problem. It is a captive market with huge costs related to labor.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
TameAntelope 6y ago
As the other reply mentioned, I wonder if this is just the human cost insanity infecting veterinary costs -- MRI tech could be used for humans, so the machine is absurdly expensive, and vets have to charge more to justify the cost of having a dedicated pet MRI.
- jjoonathan 6y ago
  Pets tend to be smaller than humans, so manufacturers could ensure that pet MRIs don't drag down human MRI prices by making smaller MRI machines that only work for pets. They probably do.
  - Kalium 6y ago
    Tend to be, but it's not that rare for someone to have a dog that's a hundred pounds and five feet long. That's in the range for an adult human.
    - jrowley 6y ago
      My dad, a radiologist once had patient that was so large that they couldn't fit them on a conventional CT scanner. Luckily this was a university town, so they were able to access the vet's large animal scanner.
      - Kalium 6y ago
        Makes sense. Horses and cows get much larger than humans!
        jjoonathan 6y ago
        I suppose that does make sense. Re: the large patient, yikes!
  - mattkrause 6y ago
    There are "small animal" MRI machines, which are mostly intended for research. The bores are really small: 55mm or so is not uncommon, so a mouse would fit, but nothing much bigger. Other animals are usually scanned on a machine meant for humans (sometimes even the exact same ones, very early in the morning or late at night).

rtkwe 6y ago

Part of that is probably the lower volume, so they have to amortize the costs over fewer procedures. Most pet injuries don't need an MRI or if the injury/illness is that bad the euthanasia or palliative only option is more considered.

dodobirdlord 6y ago
Human MRIs are also pretty expensive, and human MRI machines are generally booked solid. MRI machines cost a lot and also cost a lot to operate.
- Gibbon1 6y ago
  Last time looked at the costs of imaging I got the impression that there are a monopoly and other captive market effects at work. You'll hear medical professionals claim imaging is expensive because the machines are expensive. Which just says to me that medical professionals aren't accountants. Consider a dental w-ray machine. $15-30k. That's the cost of Prius used as a Taxi. You don't pay a couple dollars for a 15 minute Taxi cab ride. An MRI machine, I forget how much those cost. But whatever, lets compare one with a modern passenger airliner. Cost is about equivalent on a 'per passenger' basis. And an airliner requires highly trained professionals to keep it running.
  - s1artibartfast 6y ago
    A new 787 is 200 million and carries up to 300 people and has a working life of 44,000 flights, for a total of 13 million people trips. A new MRI costs ~3 million, has an operational life of 10 years, performs 5000 scans per year, for a total 50,000 people trips. The people operating the MRI machine are probably payed more than anyone working on the airplane and take vastly more time per passenger.
    - phonon 6y ago
      > A new MRI costs ~3 million, You seem to be off by a factor of 5 or 10. https://info.blockimaging.com/bid/92623/MRI-Machine-Cost-and-Price-Guide https://info.blockimaging.com/bid/92623/MRI-Machine-Cost-and...
      - s1artibartfast 6y ago
        I was quoting the number for a modern 3 tesla MRI machines, which would fall into the 500k+ range on your link. These are high end but not necessarily rare. For example, UCSF has 4 of these machines. These can easily be on the order of 3 million+ with installation https://www.pasadenanow.com/main/lab-in-emerging-biomedical-corridor-installs-3-million-high-tech-magnet/ https://www.pasadenanow.com/main/lab-in-emerging-biomedical-... Here is a link for a 7 million suite to house one of the machines https://www.dignityhealth.org/sacramento/about-us/press-center/newbiplaneangiographysuiteandwidebore3teslamri https://www.dignityhealth.org/sacramento/about-us/press-cent... While costs for these machines are going down, even more expensive 7 and 10 Tesla machines are starting to be installed, going up to $14 million https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07182-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07182-7
        phonon 6y ago
        3 T machines are not necessarily better, it depends on what they're trying to look at, getter a sharper image of noise is not useful. Anyway, your estimate seems to be way off, basing it on a 6 year old puff piece for a cutting edge model that was deployed in a lab. The cost for a typical new MRI is more like $500k.
        s1artibartfast 6y ago
        Do have any personal info here, because the first ten articles I read were up there and your article doesn’t negate it
        phonon 6y ago
  - IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
    You are on the money. My dog had MRIs and ultrasound recently. Each event was $700-$900 a pop. I take my dog for routine full checkup that includes MRI and Ultrasound whenever I travel to south america. They use the same machine brand as in the US, with same diagnostics. I pay $50-$85 over there for the same tests. Vets over in SA (not business owners) make about $500-$1000 USD per month. It would seem the huge cost is not from the machine. Its the labor. I think these are the 2 key differences: a) Based on my understanding, getting licensed in this SA country is a nonissue. There is in fact an oversupply of vets because its easy to practice. b) The price for the vet studies is on the 2k-5k year for a private U. Compare with US Colleges. Regarding quality: Our vet in SA diagnosed my dog after seeing the US diagnostic test reports , over whatsapp. She was correct on her diagnosis from the start. It took 4 different US vets, 3 separate facilities, 4 days of hospital bills ($5000) to arrive at the same conclusion that I got from a whatsapp. It is not the machine problem. It is a captive market with huge costs related to labor.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

TameAntelope 6y ago

As the other reply mentioned, I wonder if this is just the human cost insanity infecting veterinary costs -- MRI tech could be used for humans, so the machine is absurdly expensive, and vets have to charge more to justify the cost of having a dedicated pet MRI.

jjoonathan 6y ago
Pets tend to be smaller than humans, so manufacturers could ensure that pet MRIs don't drag down human MRI prices by making smaller MRI machines that only work for pets. They probably do.
- Kalium 6y ago
  Tend to be, but it's not that rare for someone to have a dog that's a hundred pounds and five feet long. That's in the range for an adult human.
  - jrowley 6y ago
    My dad, a radiologist once had patient that was so large that they couldn't fit them on a conventional CT scanner. Luckily this was a university town, so they were able to access the vet's large animal scanner.
    - Kalium 6y ago
      Makes sense. Horses and cows get much larger than humans!
      - jjoonathan 6y ago
        I suppose that does make sense. Re: the large patient, yikes!
- mattkrause 6y ago
  There are "small animal" MRI machines, which are mostly intended for research. The bores are really small: 55mm or so is not uncommon, so a mouse would fit, but nothing much bigger. Other animals are usually scanned on a machine meant for humans (sometimes even the exact same ones, very early in the morning or late at night).