7 ms·

I contend that the real tragedy of American politics is that what ought to be class/labor issues gets sidetracked into race issues. If poor whites would stop t

by syops 6y ago

I contend that the real tragedy of American politics is that what ought to be class/labor issues gets sidetracked into race issues. If poor whites would stop thinking in terms of race and instead think in terms of class and economic justice then real progress could be made. Lyndon Johnson had a famous quote about just this. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lbj-convince-the-lowest-white-man/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lbj-convince-the-lowest-wh...

edmundsauto 6y ago
Genuine question: how can poor whites join with POC, given how the systemic racial injustice narrative has developed? I would be worried about a “this protest isn’t about your situation, white person” response. (Given the current tenor)
- AWildC182 6y ago
  Really you just have to frame it as such. There is a distinction here, race issues tend to deal with the interface between citizens and the government (police among other things) where class issues tend to deal with the interface between corporations and the government. This is a gross oversimplification, but I think the takeaway is it's ok to have spaces for both discussions. I'd also add that both discussions are happening concurrently. The race issue is big right now, but economic justice is still a central topic. Occupy was a good example even if not a well organized one.
  - edmundsauto 6y ago
    There is a resistance from any movement, when they have the national attention, and another movement speaks up. It seems there is a perception that the public can only care about one thing at a time. My guess is that any attempt to reframe away from race, towards social class, would be strongly opposed by key interests. That makes it very difficult to get into the conversation, and creates infighting between marginalized groups. So maybe it turns out this sociology/governance stuff is more complicated than my engineers bias wants to admit. How do you make a decision when the complexity makes prediction useless?
    - AWildC182 6y ago
      That's a good point. I suspect maybe we're overthinking things a bit. Most movements that enter the spotlight have spent a good amount of time growing behind the scenes beforehand. We can push for class reform without framing it as reframing race issues and wait for its time in the spotlight later.
- Kalium 6y ago
  I think it starts by treating them with respect and engaging with them as human beings with their own minds, thoughts, fears, and concerns. If you approach it through the lens of "How do I get X group to sign up to Y platform", people will quickly figure out that you aren't engaging with them at all. Your well-meant and genuine intentions will go nowhere. My suggestion is that you can start with what the demographic in question cares about. Then look sincerely at if what you're trying to do actually addresses those real, sincere, valid concerns in a way that's comprehensible to a relatively ignorant person who is perhaps justifiably suspicious of being tricked.
- kibwen 6y ago
  > I would be worried about a “this protest isn’t about your situation, white person” response. (Given the current tenor) A genuine question of my own: what has planted this worry in your mind? What tenor do you speak of? The demographics of the US mean that any policy that POC want to enact has to also be supported by enormous numbers of white people; that POC-friendly policies have ever passed is evidence that working with white people is par for the course. To attempt to answer your original question, it depends on what you mean by "join". The simplest answer is to bring it back around to class and recognize the shared fight against intergenerational poverty: support social programs that disproportionately benefit the poor of all races e.g. a livable minimum wage, expanded worker protections, public healthcare, etc. If what you mean instead is to start a conversation about the unique ways in which poor whites are disadvantaged, well that's fertile ground but it also requires acknowledging that whites and poor whites have schismed into, effectively, entirely different races (they don't intermarry, they don't socialize together, they hold different values, have different cultural touchstones, etc). That's a difficult conversation to have, and you're going to find a lot of resistance from plenty of poor whites who still want to associate their identities with a holistic "whiteness" that they still long to be a part of. But someone has to start the conversation, even if it's uncomfortable, because the alternative is that the powers-that-be continue to wield that longing as an instrument by which to motivate poor whites to vote against the social programs that would benefit them.
  - isoskeles 6y ago
    > what has planted this worry in your mind? * https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/03/best-white-statement-may-be-shut-up-listen/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/03/best-whit... * https://www.news24.com/news24/columnists/melanieverwoerd/melanie-verwoerd-sometimes-whites-should-really-just-shut-up-and-listen-20200715 https://www.news24.com/news24/columnists/melanieverwoerd/mel... * https://3downnation.com/2020/06/02/dear-white-people-its-time-to-shut-up-and-listen/ https://3downnation.com/2020/06/02/dear-white-people-its-tim... * https://medium.com/i-taught-the-law/shut-up-white-people-9502890103a8 https://medium.com/i-taught-the-law/shut-up-white-people-950... * https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020-06-11/a-time-to-speak-up-but-also-a-time-to-shut-up-white-privilege-in-america-episode-30-of-crazy-town/ https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020-06-11/a-time-to-spea... * https://select.timeslive.co.za/ideas/2020-06-09-dear-white-people-all-you-ever-do-is-talk-now-shut-up/ https://select.timeslive.co.za/ideas/2020-06-09-dear-white-p... * https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/30/why-im-no-longer-talking-to-white-people-about-race https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/30/why-im-no-long... I'm not certain what you're asking or what you mean by "planted." The word "planted" implies that an idea with no basis in reality was put into this person's head. Seems like a strange way to word it if you're asking that question in good faith. Anyway, I'm not speaking for the person you responded to, my point here is simply that there are people with loud enough voices saying "white people" should "shut up." That is what I see as part of the current tenor, which would mean that some white people aren't going to bother engaging in this.
- roenxi 6y ago
  They could consider trying negotiation. 'The narrative' doesn't unconditionally control what people do. There are also multiple narratives out there and people get to subscribe to the one they want. If someone builds up an income-based coalition then the idea of 'systemic racial injustice' will fade away in favour of looking for more money.
- jim-jim-jim 6y ago
  In the US and UK's most recent national elections, there were two candidates who sought to build multi-ethnic coalitions of working people, and did a pretty good job of it considering how much hate and slander they received from the media and their own parties. The template for a movement is out there, and we're not as divided as you think. Just ignore academics and journalists lol.
monadic3 6y ago
This nation was built on racialized slavery and genocide. The descendants of slaves are still owed for what we built with their ancestor's labor. We still owe Chinese immigrants for exploiting them to build our railroads. We still owe the natives for murdering and enslaving them. There's no separating race and class in america; we were explicitly built as a country with a formal racial hierarchy that formed the class strata we have now. This is just to fend off class reductionism, which is counterproductive in our society.
nickff 6y ago
It seems like 'the issues' are being framed in ways that are convenient for the political parties. The Democratic and Republican parties each get about the same support (plus or minus 5%) from various 'classes' (as defined by income or wealth quintiles), but get very different support from different ethnic groups (national origin, and not just race has a big impact). That said, I think your class-based paradigm is just as badly flawed.
- hintymad 6y ago
  Yeah, class-based paradigm could well be deeply flawed as well. I just wish people could evaluate our situation from all angles instead of following certain narrative only.
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
I think the race problems lie with people rich enough to have the spare shits to give.
zarkov99 6y ago
Why would you think poor whites are to blame? If anything they are getting even more shafted than minorities: there is 0 sympathy if not outright hatred for poor whites, males in particular. Witness the opioid holocaust. I would instead blame all the elites that profit from the unfortunate but very real and universal human tendency towards racial prejudice. It is the oldest trick in the book, you identify some sub-group, preferably through something obvious like race, and you blame another groups woes on them. Politicians play that game, the news media plays that game and social networks accidentally machine learn it. It is all obvious and disgusting and treasonous.
newfriend 6y ago
> "if only those poor whites would vote for my party, everything would be good" Or maybe they just have different values than you want them to, and they aren't voting in terms of race?
cactuspatch 6y ago
Huh? This is completely backwards. Poor whites DO focus on economic issues. That's why Trump was able to promise bringing back manufacturing & coal jobs to win over a large segment of voters. The problem is that all of the Democrat/liberal/left-wing (whichever label you prefer when discussing the core American political divide) completely denies the existence of poor whites and explicitly rejects helping them. For the past 50 years all of the focus on social justice and structural inequalities have been focused exclusively on the urban poor, racial or sexual minorities, etc. If you're a poor white kid from a trailer park in West Virginia, you might face all the expected problems - poor education, widespread substance abuse, lack of role models, lack of resources... but there's no college scholarships for you, nobody trying to admit you to their university, nobody trying to hire you or promote you. I spent 2 years as a social worker in West Virginia. The poor whites I worked with weren't racists and weren't stupid. They were just born into poverty and a system which pretends all whites are privileged oppressors.
- ihm 6y ago
  I think syops criticism applies to the combined dynamic of the 2 American political parties and mainstream narratives, rather than either one specifically.
- sct202 6y ago
  I'm from Ohio, and OSU considers students from the Appalachian region of Ohio as underrepresented students and has specific scholarships for them as well as makes them eligible for many more general diversity/inclusion scholarships. Also first generation college students (of any race) qualify for some diversity programs as well. I know other colleges in Ohio, like Ohio University, had similar programs.
ttoomm28 6y ago
poor whites are the least likely class in america to think in terms of race i would think
__MatrixMan__ 6y ago
I totally agree. He's a similar sentiment from about 70 years earlier: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/409615-you-are-kept-apart-that-you-may-be-separately-fleeced https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/409615-you-are-kept-apart-t... The upper class needs some way to turn the middle against the lower--otherwise how can they justify their share of the wealth? Currently that way has to do with melanin. If we can figure out how to leave racism behind, and I surely hope we can, they'll have to find a new way to divide us. I wonder what it'll be.
jlawson 6y ago
This is a surreal reversal of the situation. Upper-class whites are obsessed with race, especially in the last few years. Every news story - and the news comes from the upper whites - gets twisted into something about race, as in this case. Every tech company, every Hollywood studio, every academic institution are vibrating with energy to find and fight racism; overflowing with programs and policies about race. Hell, even the Oscars can't be won by white guys making movies about white guys any more - it's in the rules! Here's the evidence https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2019/06/the-nytimes-is-woke.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2019/06/th... To say it's the poor whites who are "thinking in terms of race" too much is utterly absurd. Where's the evidence that they're thinking in terms of race more than the academics or NYT? You'll hear way more about race in a random sample of discussions at the NYT than you possibly could at a NASCAR event. The people thinking too much in terms of race are the upper-class whites, and they do this to justify their superiority over the lower whites by borrowing morality points from the (in this narrative) victimized non-whites.
- syops 6y ago
  Yes, upper class are obsessed with race and are enacting superficial policies that do little to help people who really need it. They are content to do things that make it appear to be addressing a problem but not doing things that would actually address those problems. For instance, upper class people rarely advocate for changing the way k-12 schools are funded. They rarely advocate for increasing the pay and resources of public defenders. They rarely advocate for reforming a justice system that caters to those who can afford a lawyer and crushes those who can’t. The obsession with race by the political class gets lower class whites to lose focus on real reform that would benefit everyone. So instead of saying why can’t poor people afford justice they have their attention shifted on the crimes committed by POC and the need for more cops and harsh penalties and whatnot. Instead of saying we need better pay, better health and child care the focus is on welfare deadbeats. This list goes on. The focus on a large numbers of issues in the U.S. is about race rather than about class. News media and whatnot fuel this because fear sells. It’s gets more viewers to talk about out of control black kids terrorizing whites than it is to talk about school reform, prison reform, culture reform, etc.
RHSeeger 6y ago
It sounds like you're saying that the poor whites are the one pushing the systematic racism view of the problem. Since it seems clear to me that that's not the case, I am confused by this view. Am I misunderstanding what you're saying? Edit: Since this got downvoted already, I'll try to clarify? I'm confused by what appears to be the opinion of the poster and asking for clarification so that I can better understand them. If you're going to downvote me, at least be helpful and provide some sort of answer to the question. Edit: Changed the word agenda to "view of the problem", since it's possible that was being interpreted in a way it wasn't meant.
- syops 6y ago
  I am definitely not saying that poor whites are the ones pushing the notion of race over class. I’m saying they’ve been taught by media to view things in terms of race rather than class. Race has been used by the ruling class to stifle economic justice. It’s been used to divide the lower class.
  - RHSeeger 6y ago
    Thank you for the clarification. That makes much more sense.

by syops 6y ago

edmundsauto 6y ago

Genuine question: how can poor whites join with POC, given how the systemic racial injustice narrative has developed? I would be worried about a “this protest isn’t about your situation, white person” response. (Given the current tenor)

AWildC182 6y ago
Really you just have to frame it as such. There is a distinction here, race issues tend to deal with the interface between citizens and the government (police among other things) where class issues tend to deal with the interface between corporations and the government. This is a gross oversimplification, but I think the takeaway is it's ok to have spaces for both discussions. I'd also add that both discussions are happening concurrently. The race issue is big right now, but economic justice is still a central topic. Occupy was a good example even if not a well organized one.
- edmundsauto 6y ago
  There is a resistance from any movement, when they have the national attention, and another movement speaks up. It seems there is a perception that the public can only care about one thing at a time. My guess is that any attempt to reframe away from race, towards social class, would be strongly opposed by key interests. That makes it very difficult to get into the conversation, and creates infighting between marginalized groups. So maybe it turns out this sociology/governance stuff is more complicated than my engineers bias wants to admit. How do you make a decision when the complexity makes prediction useless?
  - AWildC182 6y ago
    That's a good point. I suspect maybe we're overthinking things a bit. Most movements that enter the spotlight have spent a good amount of time growing behind the scenes beforehand. We can push for class reform without framing it as reframing race issues and wait for its time in the spotlight later.
Kalium 6y ago
I think it starts by treating them with respect and engaging with them as human beings with their own minds, thoughts, fears, and concerns. If you approach it through the lens of "How do I get X group to sign up to Y platform", people will quickly figure out that you aren't engaging with them at all. Your well-meant and genuine intentions will go nowhere. My suggestion is that you can start with what the demographic in question cares about. Then look sincerely at if what you're trying to do actually addresses those real, sincere, valid concerns in a way that's comprehensible to a relatively ignorant person who is perhaps justifiably suspicious of being tricked.
kibwen 6y ago
> I would be worried about a “this protest isn’t about your situation, white person” response. (Given the current tenor) A genuine question of my own: what has planted this worry in your mind? What tenor do you speak of? The demographics of the US mean that any policy that POC want to enact has to also be supported by enormous numbers of white people; that POC-friendly policies have ever passed is evidence that working with white people is par for the course. To attempt to answer your original question, it depends on what you mean by "join". The simplest answer is to bring it back around to class and recognize the shared fight against intergenerational poverty: support social programs that disproportionately benefit the poor of all races e.g. a livable minimum wage, expanded worker protections, public healthcare, etc. If what you mean instead is to start a conversation about the unique ways in which poor whites are disadvantaged, well that's fertile ground but it also requires acknowledging that whites and poor whites have schismed into, effectively, entirely different races (they don't intermarry, they don't socialize together, they hold different values, have different cultural touchstones, etc). That's a difficult conversation to have, and you're going to find a lot of resistance from plenty of poor whites who still want to associate their identities with a holistic "whiteness" that they still long to be a part of. But someone has to start the conversation, even if it's uncomfortable, because the alternative is that the powers-that-be continue to wield that longing as an instrument by which to motivate poor whites to vote against the social programs that would benefit them.
- isoskeles 6y ago
  > what has planted this worry in your mind? * https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/03/best-white-statement-may-be-shut-up-listen/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/03/best-whit... * https://www.news24.com/news24/columnists/melanieverwoerd/melanie-verwoerd-sometimes-whites-should-really-just-shut-up-and-listen-20200715 https://www.news24.com/news24/columnists/melanieverwoerd/mel... * https://3downnation.com/2020/06/02/dear-white-people-its-time-to-shut-up-and-listen/ https://3downnation.com/2020/06/02/dear-white-people-its-tim... * https://medium.com/i-taught-the-law/shut-up-white-people-9502890103a8 https://medium.com/i-taught-the-law/shut-up-white-people-950... * https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020-06-11/a-time-to-speak-up-but-also-a-time-to-shut-up-white-privilege-in-america-episode-30-of-crazy-town/ https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020-06-11/a-time-to-spea... * https://select.timeslive.co.za/ideas/2020-06-09-dear-white-people-all-you-ever-do-is-talk-now-shut-up/ https://select.timeslive.co.za/ideas/2020-06-09-dear-white-p... * https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/30/why-im-no-longer-talking-to-white-people-about-race https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/30/why-im-no-long... I'm not certain what you're asking or what you mean by "planted." The word "planted" implies that an idea with no basis in reality was put into this person's head. Seems like a strange way to word it if you're asking that question in good faith. Anyway, I'm not speaking for the person you responded to, my point here is simply that there are people with loud enough voices saying "white people" should "shut up." That is what I see as part of the current tenor, which would mean that some white people aren't going to bother engaging in this.
roenxi 6y ago
They could consider trying negotiation. 'The narrative' doesn't unconditionally control what people do. There are also multiple narratives out there and people get to subscribe to the one they want. If someone builds up an income-based coalition then the idea of 'systemic racial injustice' will fade away in favour of looking for more money.
jim-jim-jim 6y ago
In the US and UK's most recent national elections, there were two candidates who sought to build multi-ethnic coalitions of working people, and did a pretty good job of it considering how much hate and slander they received from the media and their own parties. The template for a movement is out there, and we're not as divided as you think. Just ignore academics and journalists lol.

monadic3 6y ago

This nation was built on racialized slavery and genocide. The descendants of slaves are still owed for what we built with their ancestor's labor. We still owe Chinese immigrants for exploiting them to build our railroads. We still owe the natives for murdering and enslaving them. There's no separating race and class in america; we were explicitly built as a country with a formal racial hierarchy that formed the class strata we have now. This is just to fend off class reductionism, which is counterproductive in our society.

nickff 6y ago

It seems like 'the issues' are being framed in ways that are convenient for the political parties. The Democratic and Republican parties each get about the same support (plus or minus 5%) from various 'classes' (as defined by income or wealth quintiles), but get very different support from different ethnic groups (national origin, and not just race has a big impact). That said, I think your class-based paradigm is just as badly flawed.

hintymad 6y ago
Yeah, class-based paradigm could well be deeply flawed as well. I just wish people could evaluate our situation from all angles instead of following certain narrative only.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago

I think the race problems lie with people rich enough to have the spare shits to give.

zarkov99 6y ago

Why would you think poor whites are to blame? If anything they are getting even more shafted than minorities: there is 0 sympathy if not outright hatred for poor whites, males in particular. Witness the opioid holocaust. I would instead blame all the elites that profit from the unfortunate but very real and universal human tendency towards racial prejudice. It is the oldest trick in the book, you identify some sub-group, preferably through something obvious like race, and you blame another groups woes on them. Politicians play that game, the news media plays that game and social networks accidentally machine learn it. It is all obvious and disgusting and treasonous.

newfriend 6y ago

> "if only those poor whites would vote for my party, everything would be good" Or maybe they just have different values than you want them to, and they aren't voting in terms of race?

cactuspatch 6y ago

Huh? This is completely backwards. Poor whites DO focus on economic issues. That's why Trump was able to promise bringing back manufacturing & coal jobs to win over a large segment of voters. The problem is that all of the Democrat/liberal/left-wing (whichever label you prefer when discussing the core American political divide) completely denies the existence of poor whites and explicitly rejects helping them. For the past 50 years all of the focus on social justice and structural inequalities have been focused exclusively on the urban poor, racial or sexual minorities, etc. If you're a poor white kid from a trailer park in West Virginia, you might face all the expected problems - poor education, widespread substance abuse, lack of role models, lack of resources... but there's no college scholarships for you, nobody trying to admit you to their university, nobody trying to hire you or promote you. I spent 2 years as a social worker in West Virginia. The poor whites I worked with weren't racists and weren't stupid. They were just born into poverty and a system which pretends all whites are privileged oppressors.

ihm 6y ago
I think syops criticism applies to the combined dynamic of the 2 American political parties and mainstream narratives, rather than either one specifically.
sct202 6y ago
I'm from Ohio, and OSU considers students from the Appalachian region of Ohio as underrepresented students and has specific scholarships for them as well as makes them eligible for many more general diversity/inclusion scholarships. Also first generation college students (of any race) qualify for some diversity programs as well. I know other colleges in Ohio, like Ohio University, had similar programs.

ttoomm28 6y ago

poor whites are the least likely class in america to think in terms of race i would think

__MatrixMan__ 6y ago

I totally agree. He's a similar sentiment from about 70 years earlier: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/409615-you-are-kept-apart-that-you-may-be-separately-fleeced https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/409615-you-are-kept-apart-t... The upper class needs some way to turn the middle against the lower--otherwise how can they justify their share of the wealth? Currently that way has to do with melanin. If we can figure out how to leave racism behind, and I surely hope we can, they'll have to find a new way to divide us. I wonder what it'll be.

jlawson 6y ago

This is a surreal reversal of the situation. Upper-class whites are obsessed with race, especially in the last few years. Every news story - and the news comes from the upper whites - gets twisted into something about race, as in this case. Every tech company, every Hollywood studio, every academic institution are vibrating with energy to find and fight racism; overflowing with programs and policies about race. Hell, even the Oscars can't be won by white guys making movies about white guys any more - it's in the rules! Here's the evidence https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2019/06/the-nytimes-is-woke.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2019/06/th... To say it's the poor whites who are "thinking in terms of race" too much is utterly absurd. Where's the evidence that they're thinking in terms of race more than the academics or NYT? You'll hear way more about race in a random sample of discussions at the NYT than you possibly could at a NASCAR event. The people thinking too much in terms of race are the upper-class whites, and they do this to justify their superiority over the lower whites by borrowing morality points from the (in this narrative) victimized non-whites.

syops 6y ago
Yes, upper class are obsessed with race and are enacting superficial policies that do little to help people who really need it. They are content to do things that make it appear to be addressing a problem but not doing things that would actually address those problems. For instance, upper class people rarely advocate for changing the way k-12 schools are funded. They rarely advocate for increasing the pay and resources of public defenders. They rarely advocate for reforming a justice system that caters to those who can afford a lawyer and crushes those who can’t. The obsession with race by the political class gets lower class whites to lose focus on real reform that would benefit everyone. So instead of saying why can’t poor people afford justice they have their attention shifted on the crimes committed by POC and the need for more cops and harsh penalties and whatnot. Instead of saying we need better pay, better health and child care the focus is on welfare deadbeats. This list goes on. The focus on a large numbers of issues in the U.S. is about race rather than about class. News media and whatnot fuel this because fear sells. It’s gets more viewers to talk about out of control black kids terrorizing whites than it is to talk about school reform, prison reform, culture reform, etc.

RHSeeger 6y ago

It sounds like you're saying that the poor whites are the one pushing the systematic racism view of the problem. Since it seems clear to me that that's not the case, I am confused by this view. Am I misunderstanding what you're saying? Edit: Since this got downvoted already, I'll try to clarify? I'm confused by what appears to be the opinion of the poster and asking for clarification so that I can better understand them. If you're going to downvote me, at least be helpful and provide some sort of answer to the question. Edit: Changed the word agenda to "view of the problem", since it's possible that was being interpreted in a way it wasn't meant.

syops 6y ago
I am definitely not saying that poor whites are the ones pushing the notion of race over class. I’m saying they’ve been taught by media to view things in terms of race rather than class. Race has been used by the ruling class to stifle economic justice. It’s been used to divide the lower class.
- RHSeeger 6y ago
  Thank you for the clarification. That makes much more sense.