4 ms·

One thing I like about Nio is they are using swappable batteries[1] that can be swapped out in about 3-5 minutes, which is comparable, or likely faster, than fi

by cronix 6y ago

One thing I like about Nio is they are using swappable batteries[1] that can be swapped out in about 3-5 minutes, which is comparable, or likely faster, than filling (from empty) at a gas station depending on tank size. It also leaves Nio in charge of keeping the batteries up to date so your car won't lose value over time like a 10 year old car with degraded batteries that won't hold as much of a charge and take longer and longer to charge over time as the battery degrades and cost a heck of a lot to swap out. It costs about $16k[2] to get a Model 3 battery replaced. Nio is able to sell cars for about $10k cheaper by using swappable batteries. Batteries as a Service. [1] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33670482/nio-swappable-batteries-lease/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33670482/nio-swappable-ba... Edit, added link: [2] https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/it-costs-nearly-2416000-to-replace-a-tesla-model-3-battery-pack/ar-BB1d5GsR https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/it-costs-nearly-...

Jonanin 6y ago
This is a pretty neat idea, but it seems insanely expensive for the network operator. Not only would having a large inventory of spare batteries be very capital intensive, but the swapping stations themselves look complex and expensive too. I wonder if Nio even has the capital required to do this at a large enough scale.
secabeen 6y ago
It's going to be very interesting to see what kinds and levels of fraud they experience with those batteries. Generally, companies don't lend or rent assets valued at $15k+ to individuals without a lot of legal and contractual protections (see your average rental car contract.) Were I them, I would worry a lot about battery wear-and-tear, undeclared damage, and even internal component substitution.
- mschuster91 6y ago
  > Were I them, I would worry a lot about battery wear-and-tear, undeclared damage, and even internal component substitution. A car battery can definitely carry its own anti tamper mechanism and an LTE modem to report issues. Besides... a car battery isn't actually worth 15k$ to a thief. Not much to part out (PCBs are custom, casing ain't gonna fetch much in terms of scrap metal, and there's not much of a market for used li-ion 18650's with the exception of ecig hobbyists so swapping them out for lower quality isn't worth the effort), if it's an exclusively rent model there is no market for a stolen pack. Wear and tear also isn't that much of an issue as Tesla proved.
  - belval 6y ago
    People steal manhole covers for the scrap value of 40$ and you think a battery pack that can be disassembled and turned into an off-grid system would be safe? I give it a year before people start swapping cells for bricks of equal weights in part of the pack or sell firmware flashing kits on AliExpress.
    - theshrike79 6y ago
      This always fascinates me. The fact that a manhole cover has a scrap value means that there is someone actually buying manhole covers and melting them for metal. Who? Why?
      - Symbiote 6y ago
        Scrap metal merchants. They buy scrap cars, girders from old buildings, household metal waste, manufacturing offcuts, and any other waste metal. They sell it on to a steelworks. They usually weigh your truck, unload it, weigh it again and pay you the difference. They often won't see what they're buying, as long as it's magnetic.
  - cronix 6y ago
    Have you seen how much they go for on ebay? Buying tesla battery packs is pretty big in the off-grid solar market since they're 24v and store a lot of juice. https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=tesla+battery https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=tesla+battery
ericmay 6y ago
I like the swappable batteries, but I think they are impractical as a comparison to Tesla SuperChargers. First, it's a logistics problem. Tesla has like 20,000 SuperChargers. If I'm driving on a road trip, I need to stop at a SuperCharger and there's let's say a dozen spots. In some locations those spots are full, others might be half empty and so forth. How will NIO supply the hardware to do these battery swaps? Will there be a dozen battery swap stations spread out similar to the SuperCharger network? Who will deliver the batteries? How many do you need? What happens if you show up and NIO ran out of batteries to swap? Will this actually be cheaper than the SuperCharger network for me? I think it makes more sense to swap the batteries out from a manufacturing standpoint, but much less so for road trips. You can see NIO already shifting away from this with increased range. If you could just swap out the batteries why even bother working on range (NIO touting 600km+ cars IIRC)? I guess that could further limit how many swap stations you need (they could be more spread out), but the problem is you end up spreading them just a long main routes. I need a SuperCharger/battery swap location in places like Marquette, Michigan or Pigeon Forge, Tennessee. And as a Tesla owner and road trip driver... I really don't mind waiting like 20 minutes for the battery to charge. It encourages me to take breaks I otherwise wouldn't have taken which are probably more healthy. Destination charging or a SuperCharger within a 20 minute drive of my destination are more of concerns for me now that I own an EV, but it just means the trip has to be planned out a little more. I like NIO's ambitions and like the battery as a service prospect, but much more for hey I want to swap out my old battery for a new one to extend the life of my car.
- theshrike79 6y ago
  I think NIO is only for Hong Kong and that's why they work. Huge population/vehicle density in a small area. They even have a charging van you can order to your location if there isn't a charger nearby. It's just a van with a huge battery in the back :D
bryanlarsen 6y ago
Tesla tried that too (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY), but they only built one swap station and they decommissioned it a couple of years later. They claimed lack of demand and doubled down on supercharging instead. A company named Better Place got a ton of VC funding to set up a battery swapping service for electric cars, and flamed out spectacularly. Perhaps NIO can succeed where Tesla and Better Place failed, but I'm doubtful. OTOH, Shanghai is probably a great place to start.
ogre_codes 6y ago
Tesla is going the opposite route and integrating their battery into the vehicle more to save weight and increase capacity.

by cronix 6y ago

Jonanin 6y ago

This is a pretty neat idea, but it seems insanely expensive for the network operator. Not only would having a large inventory of spare batteries be very capital intensive, but the swapping stations themselves look complex and expensive too. I wonder if Nio even has the capital required to do this at a large enough scale.

secabeen 6y ago

It's going to be very interesting to see what kinds and levels of fraud they experience with those batteries. Generally, companies don't lend or rent assets valued at $15k+ to individuals without a lot of legal and contractual protections (see your average rental car contract.) Were I them, I would worry a lot about battery wear-and-tear, undeclared damage, and even internal component substitution.

mschuster91 6y ago
> Were I them, I would worry a lot about battery wear-and-tear, undeclared damage, and even internal component substitution. A car battery can definitely carry its own anti tamper mechanism and an LTE modem to report issues. Besides... a car battery isn't actually worth 15k$ to a thief. Not much to part out (PCBs are custom, casing ain't gonna fetch much in terms of scrap metal, and there's not much of a market for used li-ion 18650's with the exception of ecig hobbyists so swapping them out for lower quality isn't worth the effort), if it's an exclusively rent model there is no market for a stolen pack. Wear and tear also isn't that much of an issue as Tesla proved.
- belval 6y ago
  People steal manhole covers for the scrap value of 40$ and you think a battery pack that can be disassembled and turned into an off-grid system would be safe? I give it a year before people start swapping cells for bricks of equal weights in part of the pack or sell firmware flashing kits on AliExpress.
  - theshrike79 6y ago
    This always fascinates me. The fact that a manhole cover has a scrap value means that there is someone actually buying manhole covers and melting them for metal. Who? Why?
    - Symbiote 6y ago
      Scrap metal merchants. They buy scrap cars, girders from old buildings, household metal waste, manufacturing offcuts, and any other waste metal. They sell it on to a steelworks. They usually weigh your truck, unload it, weigh it again and pay you the difference. They often won't see what they're buying, as long as it's magnetic.
- cronix 6y ago
  Have you seen how much they go for on ebay? Buying tesla battery packs is pretty big in the off-grid solar market since they're 24v and store a lot of juice. https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=tesla+battery https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=tesla+battery

ericmay 6y ago

I like the swappable batteries, but I think they are impractical as a comparison to Tesla SuperChargers. First, it's a logistics problem. Tesla has like 20,000 SuperChargers. If I'm driving on a road trip, I need to stop at a SuperCharger and there's let's say a dozen spots. In some locations those spots are full, others might be half empty and so forth. How will NIO supply the hardware to do these battery swaps? Will there be a dozen battery swap stations spread out similar to the SuperCharger network? Who will deliver the batteries? How many do you need? What happens if you show up and NIO ran out of batteries to swap? Will this actually be cheaper than the SuperCharger network for me? I think it makes more sense to swap the batteries out from a manufacturing standpoint, but much less so for road trips. You can see NIO already shifting away from this with increased range. If you could just swap out the batteries why even bother working on range (NIO touting 600km+ cars IIRC)? I guess that could further limit how many swap stations you need (they could be more spread out), but the problem is you end up spreading them just a long main routes. I need a SuperCharger/battery swap location in places like Marquette, Michigan or Pigeon Forge, Tennessee. And as a Tesla owner and road trip driver... I really don't mind waiting like 20 minutes for the battery to charge. It encourages me to take breaks I otherwise wouldn't have taken which are probably more healthy. Destination charging or a SuperCharger within a 20 minute drive of my destination are more of concerns for me now that I own an EV, but it just means the trip has to be planned out a little more. I like NIO's ambitions and like the battery as a service prospect, but much more for hey I want to swap out my old battery for a new one to extend the life of my car.

theshrike79 6y ago
I think NIO is only for Hong Kong and that's why they work. Huge population/vehicle density in a small area. They even have a charging van you can order to your location if there isn't a charger nearby. It's just a van with a huge battery in the back :D

bryanlarsen 6y ago

Tesla tried that too (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY), but they only built one swap station and they decommissioned it a couple of years later. They claimed lack of demand and doubled down on supercharging instead. A company named Better Place got a ton of VC funding to set up a battery swapping service for electric cars, and flamed out spectacularly. Perhaps NIO can succeed where Tesla and Better Place failed, but I'm doubtful. OTOH, Shanghai is probably a great place to start.

ogre_codes 6y ago

Tesla is going the opposite route and integrating their battery into the vehicle more to save weight and increase capacity.