5 ms·

Is there a reason the current gas stations, that aren't integrated with refineries, aren't making the investment for charging stations? I don't know if this is

Is there a reason the current gas stations, that aren't integrated with refineries, aren't making the investment for charging stations? I don't know if this is true or not, but my understanding is that of their revenue, they make a disproportionate amount of the their profits from convenience stores. Keeping vehicles plugged in for extended periods of time would also make EV owners more likely to venture into the store to buy a drink or snack.

gok 6y ago
Gas stations are not really a good place for charging. The cool thing about charging stations is that you can put them almost anywhere there's already some parking. They don't need huge underground tanks, or space for tanker trunks to make deliveries, or even really a lot of space for cars to maneuver around. On the other hand, for road trips they do need to be a place you'd want to spend 30 minutes or so, which means you want better shopping and entertainment than the average gas station store can offer. So some place like a mall or big box store is going to be a better place than a gas station.
einarfd 6y ago
The Norwegian branch of Circle K seems to be interested, and they have put up a charging points at some of their locations. I've never tried the charging point at Circle K though, they might be usable or they might not, at least they look like they are looked after and not physical broken. But after trying some of the other brand of chargers, I've largely given up on using any non Tesla fast charger. I will use non Tesla ones in a pinch. But if I do, my expectation is worse user experience, slower charging and more expensive, which does seem like somewhat of a bad deal.
DFHippie 6y ago
Low margin business without the capital to invest?
hocuspocus 6y ago
The infrastructure for fast charging is expensive and the ROI isn't obvious, EVs being charged at home/work most of the time.
colordrops 6y ago
I thought they are associated with oil companies. E.g. Texaco and Chevron are definitely oil companies.
hvjackson 6y ago
I'm not sure the "gas station on every corner" model is going to transition to the EV world. First of all many people will do the bulk of their charging at home, so paying for a charge will be mostly limited to long distance road trips, etc. It's not something you necessarily need to do at all during your regular commute or running errands around town. Second, even with a fast DC charger it still takes 20-60 minutes to get a useful amount of charge. That's a lot longer than you need to run into a convenient store to buy a coffee or whatever. It makes more sense to put these chargers where people will naturally be parked longer: office buildings, restaurants, highway service plazas, etc.
- Artlav 6y ago
  Hm, the US tend to have "home" defined as a stand along house with a garage/land plot, which makes it possible to have a charger at home. In most of the world city people live in flats/apartments, where you can't really do that. So i don't see how you can avoid "gas station on every corner" model.
  - hvjackson 6y ago
    Fair enough, I used "home" but it could just as easily be anywhere else the car is stored: garage, office building, even public streets maybe. Going to a filling station is just too slow to be the main way to charge. No EV owner wants to dedicate 30 minutes a week twiddling their thumbs while the car charges. I just can't see a dedicated filling station will be part of the regular routine for most EV owners the way it necessarily is for gas cars.
  - codefined 6y ago
    Presumably you have "some place" where you store your car when you're not using it. It makes sense to put a charger there, as opposed to on the block corner.
    - Artlav 6y ago
      Which will be the job for the same people that put up buildings on block corners, rather than something you do yourself.
ogre_codes 6y ago
Gas stations suck. They are usually dirty and smell like petrol. Aside from the overall grossness of gas stations, they are generally poorly laid out for long term parking. Gas stations need lots of room for cars to get in and out of stalls quickly and usually only have a few spaces for short term parking in front of the convenience store portion of the station. Adding charging centers to roadside restaurants and shopping centers makes a ton more sense because the longer charging time is highly compatible with having a place where there are interesting things to do or rest and eat.
f154hfds 6y ago
A local gas station chain to me - Sheetz - has been building out Tesla charging stations for a while. https://csnews.com/sheetz-powers-its-electric-vehicle-charging-initiative https://csnews.com/sheetz-powers-its-electric-vehicle-chargi...
zaroth 6y ago
Yes, generally you want the chargers to be somewhere where you can go spend 30 minutes doing something else. So you put them near grocery stores, or coffee shops, or a mall. Gas stations are typically not located within walking distance of any kind of retail. They are set off a ways because they are nasty, smelly business. No one hangs out at a gas station, you run into the convenience store for maybe 60 seconds, and hate it every second you're there. I would assume gas stations also have a fairly low electrical draw, so not likely to be located near transmission lines. Versus a mall or major retail outlet probably already has decent transmission capacity to make adding an additional few MWs for charging a lot easier.
lastofthemojito 6y ago
Fueling up an ICE car takes just a couple of minutes, so typically a customer would dash into the convenience store, and get something that requires zero preparation time (packaged food, bottled drinks, etc) and leave. Battery charging times are getting faster, but if you're stopping to charge an EV, I think you're there for at least 20 minutes, bare minimum. Plenty of time to have someone make you a latte, or a burrito, heck maybe get a quick massage. It's probably too soon to know which sorts of services will best complement electric charging stations, but I think there's a good chance it'll end up looking somewhat different from the typical current gas station convenience store, even once EVs are more mainstream.
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  So far, in my anecdotal experience, fast food is a pretty good match for supercharging. E.g plug in, run across the parking lot to the McDonalds and everyone uses the restrooms, maybe grabs a snack, whatever. Walk back out to the car, and leave.
- theshrike79 6y ago
  McDonalds is making a push in HVDC charging in scandinavia. Located near major highways, 350kW HVDC charger and fast-food. It's a perfect match. Go through the drive-through lane, order your food, park at the charger and they bring you the food in the car.
notJim 6y ago
My idea for a charging business would be an upscale coffee shop/fast casual restaurant. Like gas stations, you'd make most of your money selling food/drinks. Could it work?
clouddrover 6y ago
> Is there a reason the current gas stations, that aren't integrated with refineries, aren't making the investment for charging stations? They are. For example: - Petro-Canada has a trans-Canada CCS charging network: https://www.petro-canada.ca/en/personal/fuel/canadas-electric-highway https://www.petro-canada.ca/en/personal/fuel/canadas-electri... - BP is investing in CCS charging: https://network.bppulse.co.uk/ https://network.bppulse.co.uk/ - Shell is investing in CCS charging: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/how-shell-reinventing-fuel-station-evs https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/how-shell-reinve... - A an example of a small operator (don't know if he's been successful): https://www.npr.org/2019/10/26/773446805/gas-station-converts-to-electric-charging-station-and-speeds-ahead-of-curve https://www.npr.org/2019/10/26/773446805/gas-station-convert... - Circle K: https://new.abb.com/news/detail/17193/circle-k-strengthens-electric-vehicle-initiative-with-high-power-charging-stations-from-abb https://new.abb.com/news/detail/17193/circle-k-strengthens-e...

gok 6y ago

Gas stations are not really a good place for charging. The cool thing about charging stations is that you can put them almost anywhere there's already some parking. They don't need huge underground tanks, or space for tanker trunks to make deliveries, or even really a lot of space for cars to maneuver around. On the other hand, for road trips they do need to be a place you'd want to spend 30 minutes or so, which means you want better shopping and entertainment than the average gas station store can offer. So some place like a mall or big box store is going to be a better place than a gas station.

einarfd 6y ago

The Norwegian branch of Circle K seems to be interested, and they have put up a charging points at some of their locations. I've never tried the charging point at Circle K though, they might be usable or they might not, at least they look like they are looked after and not physical broken. But after trying some of the other brand of chargers, I've largely given up on using any non Tesla fast charger. I will use non Tesla ones in a pinch. But if I do, my expectation is worse user experience, slower charging and more expensive, which does seem like somewhat of a bad deal.

DFHippie 6y ago

Low margin business without the capital to invest?

hocuspocus 6y ago

The infrastructure for fast charging is expensive and the ROI isn't obvious, EVs being charged at home/work most of the time.

colordrops 6y ago

I thought they are associated with oil companies. E.g. Texaco and Chevron are definitely oil companies.

hvjackson 6y ago

I'm not sure the "gas station on every corner" model is going to transition to the EV world. First of all many people will do the bulk of their charging at home, so paying for a charge will be mostly limited to long distance road trips, etc. It's not something you necessarily need to do at all during your regular commute or running errands around town. Second, even with a fast DC charger it still takes 20-60 minutes to get a useful amount of charge. That's a lot longer than you need to run into a convenient store to buy a coffee or whatever. It makes more sense to put these chargers where people will naturally be parked longer: office buildings, restaurants, highway service plazas, etc.

Artlav 6y ago
Hm, the US tend to have "home" defined as a stand along house with a garage/land plot, which makes it possible to have a charger at home. In most of the world city people live in flats/apartments, where you can't really do that. So i don't see how you can avoid "gas station on every corner" model.
- hvjackson 6y ago
  Fair enough, I used "home" but it could just as easily be anywhere else the car is stored: garage, office building, even public streets maybe. Going to a filling station is just too slow to be the main way to charge. No EV owner wants to dedicate 30 minutes a week twiddling their thumbs while the car charges. I just can't see a dedicated filling station will be part of the regular routine for most EV owners the way it necessarily is for gas cars.
- codefined 6y ago
  Presumably you have "some place" where you store your car when you're not using it. It makes sense to put a charger there, as opposed to on the block corner.
  - Artlav 6y ago
    Which will be the job for the same people that put up buildings on block corners, rather than something you do yourself.

ogre_codes 6y ago

Gas stations suck. They are usually dirty and smell like petrol. Aside from the overall grossness of gas stations, they are generally poorly laid out for long term parking. Gas stations need lots of room for cars to get in and out of stalls quickly and usually only have a few spaces for short term parking in front of the convenience store portion of the station. Adding charging centers to roadside restaurants and shopping centers makes a ton more sense because the longer charging time is highly compatible with having a place where there are interesting things to do or rest and eat.

f154hfds 6y ago

A local gas station chain to me - Sheetz - has been building out Tesla charging stations for a while. https://csnews.com/sheetz-powers-its-electric-vehicle-charging-initiative https://csnews.com/sheetz-powers-its-electric-vehicle-chargi...

zaroth 6y ago

Yes, generally you want the chargers to be somewhere where you can go spend 30 minutes doing something else. So you put them near grocery stores, or coffee shops, or a mall. Gas stations are typically not located within walking distance of any kind of retail. They are set off a ways because they are nasty, smelly business. No one hangs out at a gas station, you run into the convenience store for maybe 60 seconds, and hate it every second you're there. I would assume gas stations also have a fairly low electrical draw, so not likely to be located near transmission lines. Versus a mall or major retail outlet probably already has decent transmission capacity to make adding an additional few MWs for charging a lot easier.

lastofthemojito 6y ago

Fueling up an ICE car takes just a couple of minutes, so typically a customer would dash into the convenience store, and get something that requires zero preparation time (packaged food, bottled drinks, etc) and leave. Battery charging times are getting faster, but if you're stopping to charge an EV, I think you're there for at least 20 minutes, bare minimum. Plenty of time to have someone make you a latte, or a burrito, heck maybe get a quick massage. It's probably too soon to know which sorts of services will best complement electric charging stations, but I think there's a good chance it'll end up looking somewhat different from the typical current gas station convenience store, even once EVs are more mainstream.

rootusrootus 6y ago
So far, in my anecdotal experience, fast food is a pretty good match for supercharging. E.g plug in, run across the parking lot to the McDonalds and everyone uses the restrooms, maybe grabs a snack, whatever. Walk back out to the car, and leave.
theshrike79 6y ago
McDonalds is making a push in HVDC charging in scandinavia. Located near major highways, 350kW HVDC charger and fast-food. It's a perfect match. Go through the drive-through lane, order your food, park at the charger and they bring you the food in the car.

notJim 6y ago

My idea for a charging business would be an upscale coffee shop/fast casual restaurant. Like gas stations, you'd make most of your money selling food/drinks. Could it work?

clouddrover 6y ago

> Is there a reason the current gas stations, that aren't integrated with refineries, aren't making the investment for charging stations? They are. For example: - Petro-Canada has a trans-Canada CCS charging network: https://www.petro-canada.ca/en/personal/fuel/canadas-electric-highway https://www.petro-canada.ca/en/personal/fuel/canadas-electri... - BP is investing in CCS charging: https://network.bppulse.co.uk/ https://network.bppulse.co.uk/ - Shell is investing in CCS charging: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/how-shell-reinventing-fuel-station-evs https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/how-shell-reinve... - A an example of a small operator (don't know if he's been successful): https://www.npr.org/2019/10/26/773446805/gas-station-converts-to-electric-charging-station-and-speeds-ahead-of-curve https://www.npr.org/2019/10/26/773446805/gas-station-convert... - Circle K: https://new.abb.com/news/detail/17193/circle-k-strengthens-electric-vehicle-initiative-with-high-power-charging-stations-from-abb https://new.abb.com/news/detail/17193/circle-k-strengthens-e...