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If Milgram's experimental method were discredited or debunked, should we conclude that, in fact, the findings were that the average person will revolt against a

If Milgram's experimental method were discredited or debunked, should we conclude that, in fact, the findings were that the average person will revolt against an unjust authority, and therefore we should interpret a lack of pervasive popular revolt as a sign of justness and legitimacy of the authorities? "Nobody else seems to have a problem with it, it must be just you. Help is available for people struggling with mental health issues and change is sometimes uncomfortable, especially for people accustomed to privilege, maybe it's time for some self-care, citizen..."

ogre_codes 6y ago
> If Milgram's experimental method were discredited or debunked, should we conclude that If his methods are discredited, you can't really conclude anything from it. The fact that he didn't prove one thing doesn't by default prove the opposite, it just means he didn't prove the original thing.
watwut 6y ago
> If Milgram's experimental method were discredited or debunked, should we conclude that, in fact, the findings were that the average person will revolt against an unjust authority, and therefore we should interpret a lack of pervasive popular revolt as a sign of justness and legitimacy of the authorities? No. Milgram's experiment being discredited means that we should revert back to the "we don't know what average person does". If you want to conclude that "the average person will revolt against an unjust authority" you will need to make multiple valid experiments to confirm that first. And you should not forget that peoples behavior is strongly influenced by cultures they are in, so you will also need to account for that. > therefore we should interpret a lack of pervasive popular revolt as a sign of justness and legitimacy of the authorities Slavery used to be considered just and legitimate. Slavery is not considered just and legitimate. "justness and legitimacy" are not scientific terms.
- njharman 6y ago
  No such thing as average person outside statistics. We see what people do every day. We don’t need experiments to show us. Just pay attention.
swirepe 6y ago
>we should interpret a lack of pervasive popular revolt as a sign of justness and legitimacy of the authorities? "Shock that person, please." "What? No." "I forgot to mention, he said he wants to steal your job and sell drugs to your kids" "Thank you for giving me a chance to shock that person. I'm glad you were here to keep me safe."
- corpMaverick 6y ago
  Voltaire: “Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities” Hey loved followers: "Those evil legislators are trying to steal the election. We need to defend our liberty."
  - arminiusreturns 6y ago
    Hey loved followers: "Now our good guy is in, go back to sleep while we expand the Empire and kill thousands of people abroad you dont care about."
    - swirepe 6y ago
      Hey loved followers: "you see that yemeni kid over there? He was talking shit about you."
    - dTal 6y ago
      I guess is is meant to be an "Obama did it too" post, but it doesn't really work. Obama didn't construct an alternate universe.
spaetzleesser 6y ago
“should we conclude that, in fact, the findings were that the average person will revolt against an unjust authority,” History has repeatedly shown that a significant number of people will actively play along and almost nobody will revolt. Otherwise the Nazi war crimes and Holocaust, My Lai, the purges and gulags under Stalin or the Khmer Rouge wouldn’t have happened. All these needed significant participation from a lot of average people. History also shows that no culture (as in religion or a certain part of the world) is immune from that.
- watwut 6y ago
  > All these needed significant participation from a lot of average people. Yes, but in all those cases, average people were someone who already went though a lot of indoctrination/propaganda. And average person was also under considerable danger he she/he defects. Average person both believed a lot of ideology and also feared for himself/herself/family. The general leaders of those were powerful players who actively believed their ideologies. The purges and gulags under Stalin were very from-top organized. They did not just impulsively went into it without planning. Instead, they made sure you have no realistic way to stop anything and that you do believe victims are the bad ones in the first place. That being said, Holocaust itself happened mostly in occupied territories when the German army had pretty much perfect control over the place. The average person was not much of a player, the military organized and backed it basically.
  - WesolyKubeczek 6y ago
    > The purges and gulags under Stalin were very from-top organized. I'd like to ask you though, who exactly sent in all those millions of complaints about "enemies of the people"?
    - spaetzleesser 6y ago
      And how many people were needed to arrest people who were clearly innocent? The answer is : Many people needed to be willing to help.
    - 6y ago
adolph 6y ago
Is lack of revolt a sign of rule justification or reflective of the adaptive power of preference falsification? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preference_falsification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preference_falsification

ogre_codes 6y ago

> If Milgram's experimental method were discredited or debunked, should we conclude that If his methods are discredited, you can't really conclude anything from it. The fact that he didn't prove one thing doesn't by default prove the opposite, it just means he didn't prove the original thing.

watwut 6y ago

> If Milgram's experimental method were discredited or debunked, should we conclude that, in fact, the findings were that the average person will revolt against an unjust authority, and therefore we should interpret a lack of pervasive popular revolt as a sign of justness and legitimacy of the authorities? No. Milgram's experiment being discredited means that we should revert back to the "we don't know what average person does". If you want to conclude that "the average person will revolt against an unjust authority" you will need to make multiple valid experiments to confirm that first. And you should not forget that peoples behavior is strongly influenced by cultures they are in, so you will also need to account for that. > therefore we should interpret a lack of pervasive popular revolt as a sign of justness and legitimacy of the authorities Slavery used to be considered just and legitimate. Slavery is not considered just and legitimate. "justness and legitimacy" are not scientific terms.

njharman 6y ago
No such thing as average person outside statistics. We see what people do every day. We don’t need experiments to show us. Just pay attention.

swirepe 6y ago

>we should interpret a lack of pervasive popular revolt as a sign of justness and legitimacy of the authorities? "Shock that person, please." "What? No." "I forgot to mention, he said he wants to steal your job and sell drugs to your kids" "Thank you for giving me a chance to shock that person. I'm glad you were here to keep me safe."

corpMaverick 6y ago
Voltaire: “Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities” Hey loved followers: "Those evil legislators are trying to steal the election. We need to defend our liberty."
- arminiusreturns 6y ago
  Hey loved followers: "Now our good guy is in, go back to sleep while we expand the Empire and kill thousands of people abroad you dont care about."
  - swirepe 6y ago
    Hey loved followers: "you see that yemeni kid over there? He was talking shit about you."
  - dTal 6y ago
    I guess is is meant to be an "Obama did it too" post, but it doesn't really work. Obama didn't construct an alternate universe.

spaetzleesser 6y ago

“should we conclude that, in fact, the findings were that the average person will revolt against an unjust authority,” History has repeatedly shown that a significant number of people will actively play along and almost nobody will revolt. Otherwise the Nazi war crimes and Holocaust, My Lai, the purges and gulags under Stalin or the Khmer Rouge wouldn’t have happened. All these needed significant participation from a lot of average people. History also shows that no culture (as in religion or a certain part of the world) is immune from that.

watwut 6y ago
> All these needed significant participation from a lot of average people. Yes, but in all those cases, average people were someone who already went though a lot of indoctrination/propaganda. And average person was also under considerable danger he she/he defects. Average person both believed a lot of ideology and also feared for himself/herself/family. The general leaders of those were powerful players who actively believed their ideologies. The purges and gulags under Stalin were very from-top organized. They did not just impulsively went into it without planning. Instead, they made sure you have no realistic way to stop anything and that you do believe victims are the bad ones in the first place. That being said, Holocaust itself happened mostly in occupied territories when the German army had pretty much perfect control over the place. The average person was not much of a player, the military organized and backed it basically.
- WesolyKubeczek 6y ago
  > The purges and gulags under Stalin were very from-top organized. I'd like to ask you though, who exactly sent in all those millions of complaints about "enemies of the people"?
  - spaetzleesser 6y ago
    And how many people were needed to arrest people who were clearly innocent? The answer is : Many people needed to be willing to help.
  - 6y ago

adolph 6y ago

Is lack of revolt a sign of rule justification or reflective of the adaptive power of preference falsification? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preference_falsification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preference_falsification