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I have looked at that keyboard a lot and am really tempted to splurge, but .. What is putting me of is the missing dedicated cursor keys at the bottom right. I

I have looked at that keyboard a lot and am really tempted to splurge, but .. What is putting me of is the missing dedicated cursor keys at the bottom right. I use a layout on my current keyboard that has cursor keys on e,s,d,f with a modifier and use that a lot, but not exclusively.. I have the same issue with the ultimate hacking keyboard and others. Has that bothered you at all, or did you find a layout that works for you and keeps the cursor keys?

Symbiote 6y ago
The Moonlander (and most of the ones being discussed) is fully programmable, so you can move the keys around as you wish. I have ← ↑ ↓ → in a line on the four lower keys on the right of my ErgoDash. Not having the ⊥ arrangement took a little time to get used to. I considered some fancy QMK (keyboard firmware) hacking to keep the inverted T, and have the key above ↓ change between Z and ↑ depending on the keypress before, but decided it wouldn't be practical. However, the Z is for Dvorak. A Qwerty layout, where it would be /, might cause less trouble.
- soenkeliebau 6y ago
  I've looked at a few Moonlander setups for the keyboard layout that I use on their site [1][2][3] and to my mind the right half is simply missing one column of keys to get a proper cursor key block. Even the lying-L option ─┘ would mean missing the right shift key (which of course should probably be on the thumb block) and getting used to something different. I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but for me being from Germany the keyboard is even more expensive than it is anyway and I'm not sure I'm willing to pay that much for the hope that I can adjust to it. [1] https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/mzD9d/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/mzD9d/la... [2] https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/60ynN/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/60ynN/la... [3] https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/jXjMx/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/jXjMx/la...
  - Symbiote 6y ago
    Those layouts have a lot of layers; I didn't have the patience to learn something that complicated. This is my ErgoDash layout. I have one less bottom-row key than the Moonlander, so I have combined PgDn/LeftAlt and ←/RightAlt onto single keys. I would uncombine these if I had the extra key, as I occasionally press Alt when I intend to press ←, but am too slow. I also have Enter/Ctrl as a single key, but it's very rare for this to do the wrong thing. http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/501437fce9123ecdaa15e9d15ec325b4 http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/501437fce9123e...
    - soenkeliebau 6y ago
      It's actually not as bad as it looks :) I mostly learned the layout to reduce stress on my hands due to the more ergonomic placement of each letter. From all the other layers I only use the cursor keys and L3 for []{}<>() and stuff like that, which are much easier to reach and I use a lot when programming.
  - flurdy 6y ago
    No, you can have a normal ⊥ arrows layout on the right half [1]. I do as I use those keys a lot. Or I can use a navigation layer as others have mentioned. The magic is the double use of modifiers if tapped or held. Whilst I personally could see a need for another column if you have a Nordic layout like mine, but that would make it not symmetrical and unnecessary for English layouts. [1] https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/rOjGj/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/rOjGj/la...
    - soenkeliebau 6y ago
      For a querty or qwerz layout that would indeed work, if you moved one symbol key (- for german layout, ? for american). However in my keyboard loayout there actually is a letter in that place (j) [1]. And while I'm willing to compromise on modifiers, page up/down and the like, I draw a line at the stuff that I spent a lot of effort on learning to touch-type :) As for using a navigation layer - perfectly happy with that 90% of the time, I already use that today, but for some things I just prefer actual cursor keys. For example selecting an entire word in an editor, you press shift to select, ctrl to jump a whole word and cursor for the direction to jump in. If you add a modifier to that, you start breaking fingers .. [1] https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/60ynN/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/60ynN/la...
UHK2 6y ago
You can have the cursor keys where you want on UHK, see the webdemo of the UHK Agent software: http://ultimatehackingkeyboard.github.io/agent/#/keymap/QWR http://ultimatehackingkeyboard.github.io/agent/#/keymap/QWR and if you buy the modules you can also have additional actions, without taking your hand off the keyboard, because you do not even need a mouse. Here is the latest review, from 4:00 could be the most interesting part for you https://blog.sebastian-daschner.com/entries/review-ultimate-hacking-keyboard https://blog.sebastian-daschner.com/entries/review-ultimate-...

Symbiote 6y ago

The Moonlander (and most of the ones being discussed) is fully programmable, so you can move the keys around as you wish. I have ← ↑ ↓ → in a line on the four lower keys on the right of my ErgoDash. Not having the ⊥ arrangement took a little time to get used to. I considered some fancy QMK (keyboard firmware) hacking to keep the inverted T, and have the key above ↓ change between Z and ↑ depending on the keypress before, but decided it wouldn't be practical. However, the Z is for Dvorak. A Qwerty layout, where it would be /, might cause less trouble.

soenkeliebau 6y ago
I've looked at a few Moonlander setups for the keyboard layout that I use on their site [1][2][3] and to my mind the right half is simply missing one column of keys to get a proper cursor key block. Even the lying-L option ─┘ would mean missing the right shift key (which of course should probably be on the thumb block) and getting used to something different. I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but for me being from Germany the keyboard is even more expensive than it is anyway and I'm not sure I'm willing to pay that much for the hope that I can adjust to it. [1] https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/mzD9d/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/mzD9d/la... [2] https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/60ynN/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/60ynN/la... [3] https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/jXjMx/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/jXjMx/la...
- Symbiote 6y ago
  Those layouts have a lot of layers; I didn't have the patience to learn something that complicated. This is my ErgoDash layout. I have one less bottom-row key than the Moonlander, so I have combined PgDn/LeftAlt and ←/RightAlt onto single keys. I would uncombine these if I had the extra key, as I occasionally press Alt when I intend to press ←, but am too slow. I also have Enter/Ctrl as a single key, but it's very rare for this to do the wrong thing. http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/501437fce9123ecdaa15e9d15ec325b4 http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/501437fce9123e...
  - soenkeliebau 6y ago
    It's actually not as bad as it looks :) I mostly learned the layout to reduce stress on my hands due to the more ergonomic placement of each letter. From all the other layers I only use the cursor keys and L3 for []{}<>() and stuff like that, which are much easier to reach and I use a lot when programming.
- flurdy 6y ago
  No, you can have a normal ⊥ arrows layout on the right half [1]. I do as I use those keys a lot. Or I can use a navigation layer as others have mentioned. The magic is the double use of modifiers if tapped or held. Whilst I personally could see a need for another column if you have a Nordic layout like mine, but that would make it not symmetrical and unnecessary for English layouts. [1] https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/rOjGj/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/rOjGj/la...
  - soenkeliebau 6y ago
    For a querty or qwerz layout that would indeed work, if you moved one symbol key (- for german layout, ? for american). However in my keyboard loayout there actually is a letter in that place (j) [1]. And while I'm willing to compromise on modifiers, page up/down and the like, I draw a line at the stuff that I spent a lot of effort on learning to touch-type :) As for using a navigation layer - perfectly happy with that 90% of the time, I already use that today, but for some things I just prefer actual cursor keys. For example selecting an entire word in an editor, you press shift to select, ctrl to jump a whole word and cursor for the direction to jump in. If you add a modifier to that, you start breaking fingers .. [1] https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/60ynN/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/60ynN/la...

UHK2 6y ago

You can have the cursor keys where you want on UHK, see the webdemo of the UHK Agent software: http://ultimatehackingkeyboard.github.io/agent/#/keymap/QWR http://ultimatehackingkeyboard.github.io/agent/#/keymap/QWR and if you buy the modules you can also have additional actions, without taking your hand off the keyboard, because you do not even need a mouse. Here is the latest review, from 4:00 could be the most interesting part for you https://blog.sebastian-daschner.com/entries/review-ultimate-hacking-keyboard https://blog.sebastian-daschner.com/entries/review-ultimate-...