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You're absolutely right - the big question of the day is not just "how do we counter disinformation?" but "how do we counter it at scale?" The bad-faith actors

by m12k 6y ago

You're absolutely right - the big question of the day is not just "how do we counter disinformation?" but "how do we counter it at scale?" The bad-faith actors of the world have realized how incredibly cost effective disinformation is in an online world that can massively amplify messages, and which algorithmically selects for divisiveness and "engagement" rather than factually and utility. We need a CAPTCHA for truth - but I'm not sure such a thing is even possible without AGI. So what does that leave us with - making algorithmic message amplification illegal? Putting that genie back in the bottle isn't going to be easy, so we'd need to be damn sure it's the right thing to do, to ever drum up enough support to get legislation like that passed.

hobofan 6y ago
Isn't the answer well know (improving education and encouraging critical thinking), but unsatisfying because it is hard to implement and changes only crystalize slowly? If everyone were to e.g. request sources for claims instead of taking them at face value that would act similar to a CAPTCHA and prevent the spread of misinformation.
- m12k 6y ago
  Sure, but again, we need a solution that scales, and there's no empirical evidence that this is a scalable solution. We also wouldn't need this if everyone would just be nice to each other and not spread disinformation in the first place, but that's not really much of a realistic solution either, just wishful thinking.
- TeaDrunk 6y ago
  I don't know if improving education and encouraging critical thinking is actually the silver bullet one may hope it is. HN considers itself a cohort with significantly more critical thinking ability, but it will make wide and unsubstantiated, highly upvoted comments whenever a political subject comes up involving censorship, hallucinogens, systemic oppression, or unions. Of course, HN is also an invaluable resource when it comes to tech and sometimes other STEM subjects. It's just significantly less valuable for areas completely outside of it. I wouldn't trust HN as a neutral or critically thinking source for, say, the usefulness (or lack of usefulness) of gender studies.
- Larrikin 6y ago
  This is a solved problem for people who like to spread disinformation at scale. You link bomb. Ideally you have a cache of extremely long messages where you selectively quote small sections of sources, out of context, that seemingly prove your point but on careful reads are unrelated or actually contradict. But there's ten or fifteen "sources" and by the time you read through the post, all the articles posted, and form a coherent argument contradicting it, they've already posted a bunch of other places and/or the thread has moved on. That's the ideal case where you're inclined to waste 20 minutes arguing agaisnt a comment on the internet and there isn't a mix of legitimate sources with total bull shit sources forcing you to do a secondary hop to prove a point agaisnt the fake source.
hashkb 6y ago
Aligning the incentives is the solution. There's no downside to bullshitting because our institutions are built on it.

by m12k 6y ago

hobofan 6y ago

Isn't the answer well know (improving education and encouraging critical thinking), but unsatisfying because it is hard to implement and changes only crystalize slowly? If everyone were to e.g. request sources for claims instead of taking them at face value that would act similar to a CAPTCHA and prevent the spread of misinformation.

m12k 6y ago
Sure, but again, we need a solution that scales, and there's no empirical evidence that this is a scalable solution. We also wouldn't need this if everyone would just be nice to each other and not spread disinformation in the first place, but that's not really much of a realistic solution either, just wishful thinking.
TeaDrunk 6y ago
I don't know if improving education and encouraging critical thinking is actually the silver bullet one may hope it is. HN considers itself a cohort with significantly more critical thinking ability, but it will make wide and unsubstantiated, highly upvoted comments whenever a political subject comes up involving censorship, hallucinogens, systemic oppression, or unions. Of course, HN is also an invaluable resource when it comes to tech and sometimes other STEM subjects. It's just significantly less valuable for areas completely outside of it. I wouldn't trust HN as a neutral or critically thinking source for, say, the usefulness (or lack of usefulness) of gender studies.
Larrikin 6y ago
This is a solved problem for people who like to spread disinformation at scale. You link bomb. Ideally you have a cache of extremely long messages where you selectively quote small sections of sources, out of context, that seemingly prove your point but on careful reads are unrelated or actually contradict. But there's ten or fifteen "sources" and by the time you read through the post, all the articles posted, and form a coherent argument contradicting it, they've already posted a bunch of other places and/or the thread has moved on. That's the ideal case where you're inclined to waste 20 minutes arguing agaisnt a comment on the internet and there isn't a mix of legitimate sources with total bull shit sources forcing you to do a secondary hop to prove a point agaisnt the fake source.

hashkb 6y ago

Aligning the incentives is the solution. There's no downside to bullshitting because our institutions are built on it.