4 ms·

Applications can exist outside of the web too.

scrollaway 6y ago
That's not my point. You wouldn't have had the development speed we've had the last 30 years. You wouldn't have had the same amount of devs. The same pickup on the web. The same worldwide connectivity. Javascript is one of the, if not the, most influential technologies of the past 100 years. It changed the course of history. Can you say the same of, like, wxWidgets or whatever UI toolkit you'd be using for your native app?
- emptyparadise 6y ago
  >Javascript is one of the, if not the, most influential technologies of the past 100 years. That's... one hell of a claim.
  - scrollaway 6y ago
    I 100% stand behind it. It rivals everything I can think of and then some (the internet itself included).
  - egeozcan 6y ago
    JS is indeed what brought us all the speed in software development. People could prototype their ideas crazy fast, and they still can. Scripting in browser had an immense positive impact on software industry, and that DID come with many negatives, but you always have the option to completely turn it off if those bother you. A sandboxed environment was a huge idea and the browser has been the primary example of how great it can be. The app model in mobile with permission isolated access is more or less the proprietary re-implementations of the browser sandbox.
    - etripe 6y ago
      Prototyping fast does not guarantee shipping robust software fast, which is in part why the JS ecosystem has been having problems. To apply the common construction analogy to JavaScript: no one would call a quick sketch on a napkin a valid blueprint for a building.
      - patates 6y ago
        > (...) JS ecosystem has been having problems what problems? Yeah, stuff like left-pad happened with NPM, but that has nothing to do with sandboxed scripting in browser. Also within my already-depressingly-long career, I had more problems with deploying "robust" .NET desktop apps (WPF & Forms) and even Qt based supposedly "cross-platform" apps than web apps. Web is the most robust platform I've ever worked with, and that's by a huge margin. JS as a language has problems[1] but the idea behind it proved itself to be great. [1]: and with the latest additions it's one of the better programming languages to work with, although the standard library sucks (or more like, nearly non-existent). But that's totally another topic.
fauigerzigerk 6y ago
Yes but if it was „incredibly naive“ to download and run JavaScript in the browser sandbox how naive would it have been to download and run native code outside of any sandbox? The browser runtime is what enabled us to use software provided by a huge number of developers of varying aptitude and motivation without putting in place some centralised gatekeeper with its own vested interests.
- account42 6y ago
  > Yes but if it was „incredibly naive“ to download and run JavaScript in the browser sandbox how naive would it have been to download and run native code outside of any sandbox? It would be naive to download and run native code for every website you visiti, yes. A few that you trust and where you think that is warranted is a different matter. Running javascript in a sandbox provides the illusion of safety so it gets enabled by default while still creating tons of problems.
  - fauigerzigerk 6y ago
    > A few that you trust and where you think that is warranted is a different matter. We tried that, and the security issues it caused were orders of magnitude more severe than any of the problems caused by defects in an up-to-date browser sandbox. Basically all consumer PCs used to be infested with viruses all the time. It sparked an entire virus scanning industry. It takes far too much discipline and diligence to make sure that you can trust the motivations and security capabilties of all your software providers. Sandboxing is good. It's the only thing short of the most heavy handed, restrictive and centralised control that has ever worked. The security issues we have on today's Web are overwhelmingly unrelated to client-side security. The problem is protecting the data that is stored on servers and the incentives created by ad based business models. All of that is equally problematic regardless of whether you run native code or sandboxed JavaScript.

That's not my point. You wouldn't have had the development speed we've had the last 30 years. You wouldn't have had the same amount of devs. The same pickup on the web. The same worldwide connectivity. Javascript is one of the, if not the, most influential technologies of the past 100 years. It changed the course of history. Can you say the same of, like, wxWidgets or whatever UI toolkit you'd be using for your native app?

emptyparadise 6y ago
>Javascript is one of the, if not the, most influential technologies of the past 100 years. That's... one hell of a claim.
- scrollaway 6y ago
  I 100% stand behind it. It rivals everything I can think of and then some (the internet itself included).
- egeozcan 6y ago
  JS is indeed what brought us all the speed in software development. People could prototype their ideas crazy fast, and they still can. Scripting in browser had an immense positive impact on software industry, and that DID come with many negatives, but you always have the option to completely turn it off if those bother you. A sandboxed environment was a huge idea and the browser has been the primary example of how great it can be. The app model in mobile with permission isolated access is more or less the proprietary re-implementations of the browser sandbox.
  - etripe 6y ago
    Prototyping fast does not guarantee shipping robust software fast, which is in part why the JS ecosystem has been having problems. To apply the common construction analogy to JavaScript: no one would call a quick sketch on a napkin a valid blueprint for a building.
    - patates 6y ago
      > (...) JS ecosystem has been having problems what problems? Yeah, stuff like left-pad happened with NPM, but that has nothing to do with sandboxed scripting in browser. Also within my already-depressingly-long career, I had more problems with deploying "robust" .NET desktop apps (WPF & Forms) and even Qt based supposedly "cross-platform" apps than web apps. Web is the most robust platform I've ever worked with, and that's by a huge margin. JS as a language has problems[1] but the idea behind it proved itself to be great. [1]: and with the latest additions it's one of the better programming languages to work with, although the standard library sucks (or more like, nearly non-existent). But that's totally another topic.

fauigerzigerk 6y ago

Yes but if it was „incredibly naive“ to download and run JavaScript in the browser sandbox how naive would it have been to download and run native code outside of any sandbox? The browser runtime is what enabled us to use software provided by a huge number of developers of varying aptitude and motivation without putting in place some centralised gatekeeper with its own vested interests.

account42 6y ago
> Yes but if it was „incredibly naive“ to download and run JavaScript in the browser sandbox how naive would it have been to download and run native code outside of any sandbox? It would be naive to download and run native code for every website you visiti, yes. A few that you trust and where you think that is warranted is a different matter. Running javascript in a sandbox provides the illusion of safety so it gets enabled by default while still creating tons of problems.
- fauigerzigerk 6y ago
  > A few that you trust and where you think that is warranted is a different matter. We tried that, and the security issues it caused were orders of magnitude more severe than any of the problems caused by defects in an up-to-date browser sandbox. Basically all consumer PCs used to be infested with viruses all the time. It sparked an entire virus scanning industry. It takes far too much discipline and diligence to make sure that you can trust the motivations and security capabilties of all your software providers. Sandboxing is good. It's the only thing short of the most heavy handed, restrictive and centralised control that has ever worked. The security issues we have on today's Web are overwhelmingly unrelated to client-side security. The problem is protecting the data that is stored on servers and the incentives created by ad based business models. All of that is equally problematic regardless of whether you run native code or sandboxed JavaScript.