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I get that these are expensive... But they might be a career saver. Listen to your body. If your fingers and wrists are telling you something, take action. It

I get that these are expensive... But they might be a career saver. Listen to your body. If your fingers and wrists are telling you something, take action. It doesn't have to be an expensive split. (I have an ergodox with the Norman keyboard layout with other firmware goodies as well as running AutoHotKeys to give me emacs bindings all over the place.)

germ 6y ago
This. And don't underestimate how much a Keymap can be changed to fit your specific workflow. My Keymap (the default) [0] for GergoPlex is very Vim/i3/Linux orientated, but that's just because it's what I use. If you're not programming your keyboard, _why?!_ I get a ton of emails from people that wreck their hands from bad ergonomics/keyboards and are trying to find a solution. It's bloddy disgusting that we still use something like a 104/QWERTY on such a crucial input device. [0] https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rRS_TOYuIQQ/XhRERox3moI/AAAAAAABEB0/uTThutO8H9o8HK-sdNgzOKC1-gIdyEFoACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Capture.png https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rRS_TOYuIQQ/XhRERox3moI/AAAAAAABE... [1] https://www.gboards.ca/product/gergoplex https://www.gboards.ca/product/gergoplex
fpgaminer 6y ago
I read a blog post on Coding Horror back in the mid 2000s about the importance of a good chair. It really opened my eyes and convinced me that, regardless of the cost, an ergonomic working environment is worth every penny. So fast forward about two decades ... and I finally bought my first ergonomic chair... It's stunning how stubborn we can be, even when we know for certain that something is good for us. I don't even know why I put it off for so long. All I can really say is, don't be me. Listen to comments like the one I'm replying to. Get good equipment. Your body will thank you later. P.S. Self Rant: I was gonna write that the reason I put it off so long is that $1000 for a chair is a big number no matter how much I may believe in its benefit ... but then, the chair I ended up buying was like $500, delivered, with all the upgrades, because it was remanufactured and on a black friday sale. Why didn't I buy one sooner!? The hell is wrong with me?
- __mharrison__ 6y ago
  Sorry about that. When I'm not standing I am in a pretty retro chair... I get a lot of flak on Twitter but it works for me... (I have another ergo/padded chair but my back/hind isn't giving me signals) https://mobile.twitter.com/__mharrison__/status/1346323337287405568 https://mobile.twitter.com/__mharrison__/status/134632333728...
  - tomcam 6y ago
    Not sure why? That design has been solid for like 150 years...
- johnsoft 6y ago
  I'm in the market for a new chair. Which one did you buy? (Or if you'd rather teach me to fish, how did you decide on one?)
  - fpgaminer 6y ago
    There are a couple of HN threads specifically about chairs. I looked for those using the search feature and just tabulated what was most commonly recommended. That ended up being the Steelcase Leap, which is the one I got (or rather, the Leap V2). Most importantly, I bought from a reputable place that did free returns. Not much to it, really. The price tag is what really made it hard for me to pull the trigger. But after the fact I can say that, while this chair may or may not be "perfect", it's 10x better than the cheap one it replaced. So yeah, worth every penny.
    - biztos 6y ago
      I bought my first serious chair about 10 years ago, a Vitra model they don’t make anymore. It was over 1000 EUR here in Berlin. The first day of working in it, I felt like an idiot for not having made that investment ten years earlier. Now I’m starting a period of voluntary digital vagabondage and will need to explore ergonomics options other than “nice chair.” But I will probably keep that beast in storage. If you can try them out at a showroom that’s best but in any case I 100% agree, buy from a reputable dealer, it will save you the headache of thinking about returns even if everything is perfect.
dehrmann 6y ago
> But they might be a career saver. Seriously. I'll also plug vertical mice. They look goofy, but it's a better wrist position.
- samatman 6y ago
  I picked a trackball with scroll wheel, which I'll briefly pitch: - It's always in the same place, so reaching the mouse is completely muscle memory - I can put it as close as possible to my keyboard - No elbow motion except to get from keyboard to trackball - Scrolling is a bit more than half of my 'mousing' and is easy, just spin a large wheel clockwise I got one with two buttons, my only regret; Kensington makes one with four, but I don't care quite enough to upgrade.
  - matsemann 6y ago
    > - No elbow motion except to get from keyboard to trackball But it's still some motion. When I hurt my elbow, a "rollermouse" was my savior. It's absolutely no movement of my elbow. My fingers are resting on the keyboard, I move the bar using my thumbs, or if more precision is needed I bring down one index finger. But my palms don't move at all. (Not like their press photos where they have moved their whole hand..)
    - samatman 6y ago
      True, and accessibility is why the long tail of peripherals is so important. For the home-row supremacists, it would be great to have an ortholinear split-key which has a ThinkPad-style nub, although we could spill a lot of ink about where to put it: in between u-i-j-k would suit me best, other people might want y-u-h-j for the index rather than middle finger— and of course, the left-handed equivalent for those who prefer it, I happen to be left-handed but mouse with my right and wouldn't care to switch. There's room in the Ergodox layout for one more thumb key, between the grid and the thumb cluster, it would require expanding the classic chassis but that's a small thing. The driver, the custom keys, and an appropriately sensitive joystick, these are not small things! I think one could drill through a corner of four of the switches, to make enough room, without touching the electronics, and mmmmaybe mold a custom housing which is missing a corner, simply rotating appropriately. Making room for the traces and such is completely above my paygrade. But if Ergodox costs $350 to get to the user, this keyboard would probably end up costing $500 on a good day. It would be a glorious thing, but I wonder about the market for it.
selftest 6y ago
They don’t have to be expensive! More than the $30 Big Box special but often cheaper than a comparable “gaming” keyboard. I’ve built boards for as little as $50 and you can do it for even cheaper if you have access to a 3D printer and don’t mind some tedious wiring and soldering.
jamil7 6y ago
Some of them aren't even expensive, I have the cheap R-Go Split mentioned in the list and it's been great for me, someone with wider shoulders and long arms. I finally feel like I can type in a natural position. Completely agree though, it took me too long and too much complaining to start looking into this area.
- martin_a 6y ago
  Any negative sides on this one? I wonder if all the others are expensive for a reason and the R-Go misses something?!?

germ 6y ago

This. And don't underestimate how much a Keymap can be changed to fit your specific workflow. My Keymap (the default) [0] for GergoPlex is very Vim/i3/Linux orientated, but that's just because it's what I use. If you're not programming your keyboard, _why?!_ I get a ton of emails from people that wreck their hands from bad ergonomics/keyboards and are trying to find a solution. It's bloddy disgusting that we still use something like a 104/QWERTY on such a crucial input device. [0] https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rRS_TOYuIQQ/XhRERox3moI/AAAAAAABEB0/uTThutO8H9o8HK-sdNgzOKC1-gIdyEFoACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Capture.png https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rRS_TOYuIQQ/XhRERox3moI/AAAAAAABE... [1] https://www.gboards.ca/product/gergoplex https://www.gboards.ca/product/gergoplex

fpgaminer 6y ago

I read a blog post on Coding Horror back in the mid 2000s about the importance of a good chair. It really opened my eyes and convinced me that, regardless of the cost, an ergonomic working environment is worth every penny. So fast forward about two decades ... and I finally bought my first ergonomic chair... It's stunning how stubborn we can be, even when we know for certain that something is good for us. I don't even know why I put it off for so long. All I can really say is, don't be me. Listen to comments like the one I'm replying to. Get good equipment. Your body will thank you later. P.S. Self Rant: I was gonna write that the reason I put it off so long is that $1000 for a chair is a big number no matter how much I may believe in its benefit ... but then, the chair I ended up buying was like $500, delivered, with all the upgrades, because it was remanufactured and on a black friday sale. Why didn't I buy one sooner!? The hell is wrong with me?

__mharrison__ 6y ago
Sorry about that. When I'm not standing I am in a pretty retro chair... I get a lot of flak on Twitter but it works for me... (I have another ergo/padded chair but my back/hind isn't giving me signals) https://mobile.twitter.com/__mharrison__/status/1346323337287405568 https://mobile.twitter.com/__mharrison__/status/134632333728...
- tomcam 6y ago
  Not sure why? That design has been solid for like 150 years...
johnsoft 6y ago
I'm in the market for a new chair. Which one did you buy? (Or if you'd rather teach me to fish, how did you decide on one?)
- fpgaminer 6y ago
  There are a couple of HN threads specifically about chairs. I looked for those using the search feature and just tabulated what was most commonly recommended. That ended up being the Steelcase Leap, which is the one I got (or rather, the Leap V2). Most importantly, I bought from a reputable place that did free returns. Not much to it, really. The price tag is what really made it hard for me to pull the trigger. But after the fact I can say that, while this chair may or may not be "perfect", it's 10x better than the cheap one it replaced. So yeah, worth every penny.
  - biztos 6y ago
    I bought my first serious chair about 10 years ago, a Vitra model they don’t make anymore. It was over 1000 EUR here in Berlin. The first day of working in it, I felt like an idiot for not having made that investment ten years earlier. Now I’m starting a period of voluntary digital vagabondage and will need to explore ergonomics options other than “nice chair.” But I will probably keep that beast in storage. If you can try them out at a showroom that’s best but in any case I 100% agree, buy from a reputable dealer, it will save you the headache of thinking about returns even if everything is perfect.

dehrmann 6y ago

> But they might be a career saver. Seriously. I'll also plug vertical mice. They look goofy, but it's a better wrist position.

samatman 6y ago
I picked a trackball with scroll wheel, which I'll briefly pitch: - It's always in the same place, so reaching the mouse is completely muscle memory - I can put it as close as possible to my keyboard - No elbow motion except to get from keyboard to trackball - Scrolling is a bit more than half of my 'mousing' and is easy, just spin a large wheel clockwise I got one with two buttons, my only regret; Kensington makes one with four, but I don't care quite enough to upgrade.
- matsemann 6y ago
  > - No elbow motion except to get from keyboard to trackball But it's still some motion. When I hurt my elbow, a "rollermouse" was my savior. It's absolutely no movement of my elbow. My fingers are resting on the keyboard, I move the bar using my thumbs, or if more precision is needed I bring down one index finger. But my palms don't move at all. (Not like their press photos where they have moved their whole hand..)
  - samatman 6y ago
    True, and accessibility is why the long tail of peripherals is so important. For the home-row supremacists, it would be great to have an ortholinear split-key which has a ThinkPad-style nub, although we could spill a lot of ink about where to put it: in between u-i-j-k would suit me best, other people might want y-u-h-j for the index rather than middle finger— and of course, the left-handed equivalent for those who prefer it, I happen to be left-handed but mouse with my right and wouldn't care to switch. There's room in the Ergodox layout for one more thumb key, between the grid and the thumb cluster, it would require expanding the classic chassis but that's a small thing. The driver, the custom keys, and an appropriately sensitive joystick, these are not small things! I think one could drill through a corner of four of the switches, to make enough room, without touching the electronics, and mmmmaybe mold a custom housing which is missing a corner, simply rotating appropriately. Making room for the traces and such is completely above my paygrade. But if Ergodox costs $350 to get to the user, this keyboard would probably end up costing $500 on a good day. It would be a glorious thing, but I wonder about the market for it.

selftest 6y ago

They don’t have to be expensive! More than the $30 Big Box special but often cheaper than a comparable “gaming” keyboard. I’ve built boards for as little as $50 and you can do it for even cheaper if you have access to a 3D printer and don’t mind some tedious wiring and soldering.

jamil7 6y ago

Some of them aren't even expensive, I have the cheap R-Go Split mentioned in the list and it's been great for me, someone with wider shoulders and long arms. I finally feel like I can type in a natural position. Completely agree though, it took me too long and too much complaining to start looking into this area.

martin_a 6y ago
Any negative sides on this one? I wonder if all the others are expensive for a reason and the R-Go misses something?!?