3 ms·

Wouldn't other nation states presume it was a psy-op as well? Also regarding the CIA ESP projects, are you saying that Project Stargate[1] and the Gateway proc

Wouldn't other nation states presume it was a psy-op as well? Also regarding the CIA ESP projects, are you saying that Project Stargate[1] and the Gateway process[2] were disinfo, or not technically run by the CIA? I hadn't thought about them in that regard, I figured it was more a case of "we think the Russians are doing this, so maybe there's something to it".(V.P.Perov's alleged experiments with rabbits on submarines published in 1984)[3] [1]https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/collection/stargate https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/collection/stargate [2]https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP96-00788R001700210016-5.pdf https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP96-00788R0017002... [3]https://arxiv.org/pdf/1312.1148.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/1312.1148.pdf

eitland 6y ago
> Wouldn't other nation states presume it was a psy-op as well? Serious magic is just mind tricks, optical illusions, misdirection etc applied skillfully. Part of the effect often comes from the story that the magician tells around them, planting a story and allowing it to take on a life of its own inside the spectators mind. "The biggest mistake people do when trying to understand magic tricks is to underestimate how far a (professional) magician will go to cover up what they are really doing" or something to that effect is a quote I could note find a source for at the moment but that I think I might have heard in a Penn and Teller video or something. I guess this is the same for the military. (FWIW: Here's a 14 minutes talk where magician Jon Ensor about something similar: https://www.ted.com/talks/jon_ensor_who_needs_tricks_charisma_has_magical_powers https://www.ted.com/talks/jon_ensor_who_needs_tricks_charism... )
ncmncm 6y ago
The actual target of a PSY-OP can be hard to ascertain, as they are fundamentally deceptions. One mustn't assume other countries are necessarily intended targets. There is no reason to believe there was ever any expectation that ESP would work for spying, or that any actual effort was undertaken to try. However, a great deal of work went into convincing Americans that it had been attempted. Ultimately, that work has to be seen as the actual point of the operation. There is no clear indication of the purpose of the operation. Jon Ronson's (terrifying) book, "Men Who Stare at Goats", explored the history of the operation and the group that perpetrated it. He made clear that it is not just historical, but an ongoing operation, a successful attack on the American public. Ronald Reagan's Star Wars "Strategic Defense Initiative" could very easily have been primarily a PSY-OP against the USSR. A great deal of money was spent with very little direct result, but the USSR military went apeshit over it and crashed their whole economy. (Disclosure: I flew to a semiconductor conference in Hungary in 1987, on SDI money via AFNOR, with a stopover in East Berlin.)
- kipchak 6y ago
  >He made clear that it is not just historical, but an ongoing operation, a successful attack on the American public. What would be the modern/ongoing equivalent, something like PRISM and surveillance in general serving a role like the Panopticon?
  - ncmncm 6y ago
    Probably the best recent example was the drumbeat in favor of invading Iraq, despite every scrap of evidence showing that there was no defensible reason for it, and that it would utterly fail its objectives even on its own crack-brained terms. A military unit whose brief is deceiving the American public will necessarily attract participants whose chosen role in life is that, so will naturally become a center of corruption in an already corrupt enterprise. What is the point of the Navy/UFO operation? We may never know.

eitland 6y ago

> Wouldn't other nation states presume it was a psy-op as well? Serious magic is just mind tricks, optical illusions, misdirection etc applied skillfully. Part of the effect often comes from the story that the magician tells around them, planting a story and allowing it to take on a life of its own inside the spectators mind. "The biggest mistake people do when trying to understand magic tricks is to underestimate how far a (professional) magician will go to cover up what they are really doing" or something to that effect is a quote I could note find a source for at the moment but that I think I might have heard in a Penn and Teller video or something. I guess this is the same for the military. (FWIW: Here's a 14 minutes talk where magician Jon Ensor about something similar: https://www.ted.com/talks/jon_ensor_who_needs_tricks_charisma_has_magical_powers https://www.ted.com/talks/jon_ensor_who_needs_tricks_charism... )

ncmncm 6y ago

The actual target of a PSY-OP can be hard to ascertain, as they are fundamentally deceptions. One mustn't assume other countries are necessarily intended targets. There is no reason to believe there was ever any expectation that ESP would work for spying, or that any actual effort was undertaken to try. However, a great deal of work went into convincing Americans that it had been attempted. Ultimately, that work has to be seen as the actual point of the operation. There is no clear indication of the purpose of the operation. Jon Ronson's (terrifying) book, "Men Who Stare at Goats", explored the history of the operation and the group that perpetrated it. He made clear that it is not just historical, but an ongoing operation, a successful attack on the American public. Ronald Reagan's Star Wars "Strategic Defense Initiative" could very easily have been primarily a PSY-OP against the USSR. A great deal of money was spent with very little direct result, but the USSR military went apeshit over it and crashed their whole economy. (Disclosure: I flew to a semiconductor conference in Hungary in 1987, on SDI money via AFNOR, with a stopover in East Berlin.)

kipchak 6y ago
>He made clear that it is not just historical, but an ongoing operation, a successful attack on the American public. What would be the modern/ongoing equivalent, something like PRISM and surveillance in general serving a role like the Panopticon?
- ncmncm 6y ago
  Probably the best recent example was the drumbeat in favor of invading Iraq, despite every scrap of evidence showing that there was no defensible reason for it, and that it would utterly fail its objectives even on its own crack-brained terms. A military unit whose brief is deceiving the American public will necessarily attract participants whose chosen role in life is that, so will naturally become a center of corruption in an already corrupt enterprise. What is the point of the Navy/UFO operation? We may never know.