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things about php that make me sad: 1. it exists 2. it's used 3. many of its users make more money than me 4. it has poisoned the market, clients have learne

things about php that make me sad: 1. it exists 2. it's used 3. many of its users make more money than me 4. it has poisoned the market, clients have learned to expect and even demand php-braindeath

code_duck 15y ago
I can't even imagine how many developers out there started with WordPress and think the ramshackle way it's put together is normal.
- jasonlotito 15y ago
  Probably the same type of developer that assumes WordPress is an example of professional PHP code.
  - code_duck 15y ago
    It's true. The problem is it's often the only PHP code they know. Many people do assume it's an example of good code, since it's so popular and essentially works. WordPress is really an excellent companion to PHP itself - created by beginners who had no idea about how to design a language or framework. They have each since become somewhat respectable, but are shackled by the attempts they made to preserve backwards compatibility in the early days.
snorkel 15y ago
I often find that PHP coders lack a total understanding of the LAMP stack. "Apache configuration? Huh? I don't know, our admins do that." "MySQL? I don't know, I'm not a DBA. I'm a developer." "UNIX commands?!! I don't like going in the terminal. I'm a developer." No, sorry, you're not a developer. You're a glorified web page editor.
- ceejayoz 15y ago
  Bullshit. You don't have to be a sysadmin to be a developer. Web devs often know the whole stack, but you're still a web dev if someone else in your company handles those parts..
  - andos 15y ago
    You missed the point: they are talking about people who do not know those aspects of the LAMP stack, not the ones who can afford delegating them to DBAs and sysadmins. The first group are indeed glorified web page editors.
    - ceejayoz 15y ago
      Again, bullshit. I've had PHP projects that were entirely command-line with no Apache and MySQL. If you want to argue that those projects weren't development, that's absurd. Systems and database administration are hugely complimentary skills, but someone who doesn't know anything about setting either one up is still developing.
      - count 15y ago
        I agree with you in a literal sense. I'd add the adjective 'extremely poorly' to 'developing' for any developer who doesn't have a thorough grasp of the system for which they are developing.
        ceejayoz 15y ago
        An artist can make great art without knowing the details of how the dyes in their paint are manufactured. The same is true for development.
        count 15y ago
        Can an artist make great art without knowing to use oil paint on canvas, instead of watercolor (or whatever - I'm not an artist)? How about knowing the difference between types of brushes and what effect they have on the canvas? Is it 'great art' if it's accidental?
- rimantas 15y ago
  Is PHP that different from other platforms in this regard? Any Java programmer knows ins and out of Tomcat, any ASP programmer is MSSQL expert?
  - nupark2 15y ago
    * > Any Java programmer knows ins and out of Tomcat, any ASP programmer is MSSQL expert?* I'd hope they are experts, or at least have no trouble learning quickly. If they can't manage MSSQL or Tomcat, how do they set up their local development environment, implement automated integration tests, etc?
    - eropple 15y ago
      They inherit it from whoever worked on the code before them. I work on Java every day. I probably have a better grasp of Tomcat than many people at my company. If we somehow magically lost all our Apache/Tomcat configuration files, there's no way in hell I could build it from scratch. (I can, however, build a scalable system based around PHP web apps with my eyes closed. I'm not super proud of that.)

things about php that make me sad: 1. it exists 2. it's used 3. many of its users make more money than me 4. it has poisoned the market, clients have learned to expect and even demand php-braindeath

code_duck 15y ago

I can't even imagine how many developers out there started with WordPress and think the ramshackle way it's put together is normal.

jasonlotito 15y ago
Probably the same type of developer that assumes WordPress is an example of professional PHP code.
- code_duck 15y ago
  It's true. The problem is it's often the only PHP code they know. Many people do assume it's an example of good code, since it's so popular and essentially works. WordPress is really an excellent companion to PHP itself - created by beginners who had no idea about how to design a language or framework. They have each since become somewhat respectable, but are shackled by the attempts they made to preserve backwards compatibility in the early days.

snorkel 15y ago

I often find that PHP coders lack a total understanding of the LAMP stack. "Apache configuration? Huh? I don't know, our admins do that." "MySQL? I don't know, I'm not a DBA. I'm a developer." "UNIX commands?!! I don't like going in the terminal. I'm a developer." No, sorry, you're not a developer. You're a glorified web page editor.

ceejayoz 15y ago
Bullshit. You don't have to be a sysadmin to be a developer. Web devs often know the whole stack, but you're still a web dev if someone else in your company handles those parts..
- andos 15y ago
  You missed the point: they are talking about people who do not know those aspects of the LAMP stack, not the ones who can afford delegating them to DBAs and sysadmins. The first group are indeed glorified web page editors.
  - ceejayoz 15y ago
    Again, bullshit. I've had PHP projects that were entirely command-line with no Apache and MySQL. If you want to argue that those projects weren't development, that's absurd. Systems and database administration are hugely complimentary skills, but someone who doesn't know anything about setting either one up is still developing.
    - count 15y ago
      I agree with you in a literal sense. I'd add the adjective 'extremely poorly' to 'developing' for any developer who doesn't have a thorough grasp of the system for which they are developing.
      - ceejayoz 15y ago
        An artist can make great art without knowing the details of how the dyes in their paint are manufactured. The same is true for development.
        count 15y ago
        Can an artist make great art without knowing to use oil paint on canvas, instead of watercolor (or whatever - I'm not an artist)? How about knowing the difference between types of brushes and what effect they have on the canvas? Is it 'great art' if it's accidental?
rimantas 15y ago
Is PHP that different from other platforms in this regard? Any Java programmer knows ins and out of Tomcat, any ASP programmer is MSSQL expert?
- nupark2 15y ago
  * > Any Java programmer knows ins and out of Tomcat, any ASP programmer is MSSQL expert?* I'd hope they are experts, or at least have no trouble learning quickly. If they can't manage MSSQL or Tomcat, how do they set up their local development environment, implement automated integration tests, etc?
  - eropple 15y ago
    They inherit it from whoever worked on the code before them. I work on Java every day. I probably have a better grasp of Tomcat than many people at my company. If we somehow magically lost all our Apache/Tomcat configuration files, there's no way in hell I could build it from scratch. (I can, however, build a scalable system based around PHP web apps with my eyes closed. I'm not super proud of that.)