6 ms·

I resonate somewhat with the gripes about Emacs' crustiness. But on the other hand, I don't understand the complaints about it being ugly. I haven't heard that

I resonate somewhat with the gripes about Emacs' crustiness. But on the other hand, I don't understand the complaints about it being ugly. I haven't heard that for a while. I'd like to think that my Emacs is quite pretty: http://jlongster.com/s/emacs.png http://jlongster.com/s/emacs.png There are things Emacs can do which VIM will never do. And vice-versa. They are separate editors embracing separate philosophies. Lastly, keep in mind that this is 40 year old software, and considering that it's done a great job keeping up with the times.

technomancy 15y ago
I think most of the "ugly" gripes come from people who either don't know how to change the font or haven't bothered to turn the tool bar off.
- jlongster 15y ago
  That's true. I'm considering making a few screencasts that show how go from nothing to a full Emacs installation/customization on different platforms. I think that would be neat/fun.
  - BrandonM 15y ago
    Please do. Bonus points if you include something about Vimpulse (http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/vimpulse.el http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/vimpulse.el) to entice vim users to give it a try.
    - jlongster 15y ago
      Cool, I haven't tried that library. I use the built-in vi-mode which does basic stuff. Please check back with http://jlongster.com/ http://jlongster.com/ in a few months, I have plans to start doing this kind of stuff there.
      - BrandonM 15y ago
        I've added it to my calendar. I'll ping you at the end of July if there's nothing there at that point :).
- mixmax 15y ago
  I'm not trying to be snarky here, but if you change the font and turn the toolbar off what's left of the design?
  - dkarl 15y ago
    If only you could configure Eclipse until nothing was left of its design!
    - munificent 15y ago
      I've actually gotten Eclipse into a fairly clean state: http://i.imgur.com/ln2N8.png http://i.imgur.com/ln2N8.png Most of the clutter is gone, but all of the nice IDE features (refactoring, immediate error detection, etc.) are still there. It's a nice way to work.
      - bmj 15y ago
        I run VS2010 in a similar way, though it is much easier to strip off the widgets. Most of my co-workers don't understand how I can work that way. I tell them it's all about learning (or modifying) keybindings.
  - technomancy 15y ago
    > what's left of the design? Exactly.
    - mixmax 15y ago
      Then you're talking more usability than design. In that regard emacs doesn't exactly rate well.
      - Goladus 15y ago
        Emacs is very usable if you can make a few reasonable assumptions about the user. Obviously it's not perfect (see the discussion of changing fonts in the originally posted blog) but making those assumptions about the user allows for a great deal of capability.
lurker19 15y ago
But if one insists in staying on the fence, one has viper and vimpulse: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs-es/Vimpulse http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs-es/Vimpulse
forensic 15y ago
>They are separate editors embracing separate philosophies. What are the two different philosophies?
- Meai 15y ago
  From my limited experience with both: Vim is for editing text efficiently, Emacs is an allrounder. This is easily shown when you look at how they do things. In Emacs you have to press ctrl and/or alt for almost every keyboard shortcut. Personally I prefer the Vim way of having different modes, which let me keep my fingers in a comfortable position, while typing at full speed and utilizing all common, easily reached keys for shortcuts.

technomancy 15y ago

I think most of the "ugly" gripes come from people who either don't know how to change the font or haven't bothered to turn the tool bar off.

jlongster 15y ago
That's true. I'm considering making a few screencasts that show how go from nothing to a full Emacs installation/customization on different platforms. I think that would be neat/fun.
- BrandonM 15y ago
  Please do. Bonus points if you include something about Vimpulse (http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/vimpulse.el http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/vimpulse.el) to entice vim users to give it a try.
  - jlongster 15y ago
    Cool, I haven't tried that library. I use the built-in vi-mode which does basic stuff. Please check back with http://jlongster.com/ http://jlongster.com/ in a few months, I have plans to start doing this kind of stuff there.
    - BrandonM 15y ago
      I've added it to my calendar. I'll ping you at the end of July if there's nothing there at that point :).
mixmax 15y ago
I'm not trying to be snarky here, but if you change the font and turn the toolbar off what's left of the design?
- dkarl 15y ago
  If only you could configure Eclipse until nothing was left of its design!
  - munificent 15y ago
    I've actually gotten Eclipse into a fairly clean state: http://i.imgur.com/ln2N8.png http://i.imgur.com/ln2N8.png Most of the clutter is gone, but all of the nice IDE features (refactoring, immediate error detection, etc.) are still there. It's a nice way to work.
    - bmj 15y ago
      I run VS2010 in a similar way, though it is much easier to strip off the widgets. Most of my co-workers don't understand how I can work that way. I tell them it's all about learning (or modifying) keybindings.
- technomancy 15y ago
  > what's left of the design? Exactly.
  - mixmax 15y ago
    Then you're talking more usability than design. In that regard emacs doesn't exactly rate well.
    - Goladus 15y ago
      Emacs is very usable if you can make a few reasonable assumptions about the user. Obviously it's not perfect (see the discussion of changing fonts in the originally posted blog) but making those assumptions about the user allows for a great deal of capability.

lurker19 15y ago

But if one insists in staying on the fence, one has viper and vimpulse: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs-es/Vimpulse http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs-es/Vimpulse

forensic 15y ago

>They are separate editors embracing separate philosophies. What are the two different philosophies?

Meai 15y ago
From my limited experience with both: Vim is for editing text efficiently, Emacs is an allrounder. This is easily shown when you look at how they do things. In Emacs you have to press ctrl and/or alt for almost every keyboard shortcut. Personally I prefer the Vim way of having different modes, which let me keep my fingers in a comfortable position, while typing at full speed and utilizing all common, easily reached keys for shortcuts.