5 ms·

How Zynga Uses Ghetto Testing, A/B Testing, Minimum Viable Products

75 points by DanielRibeiro 15y ago

aresant 15y ago
This is such a powerful, simple concept. We've discussed this before on HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=539900 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=539900 And there's a whole forum dedicated to this style of product creation / testing on Tim Ferris' site: http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/vBulletin/forumdisplay.php?s=9ae24b28914ac9d68687698104da781e&f=5 http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/vBulletin/forumdisplay.php?s... Lots of goodies buried in there.
rokhayakebe 15y ago
I frankly doubt there is a way to know which product will make a viable business or not. If you think about it Google has more data then anyone on what users actually want, and they still create products which fail.
- r00fus 15y ago
  Perhaps if they based their new features on users testing like Zynga, instead of the 20% projects of their employees they might have features that have more market success (keep in mind Google's and Zynga's market are not directly comparable). Implementation wise, I could see Google doing a "labs ghetto" where some set of white-listed MVPs would go out to small percentage of their user-base. It's a powerful concept.
jaredmck 15y ago
Ghetto testing? That's a terrible name for this...
- reitzensteinm 15y ago
  I think it describes it perfectly, at least based on the usage of ghetto as slang where I grew up (Australia). Of course, it's not a term to use where political correctness is required.
- jessedhillon 15y ago
  I really wish "ghetto" -- as a stand-in for ill-conceived, poorly executed, low quality, substandard etc. -- would die. IMO when people use it, they are introducing the suggestion that these "ghetto" things are what poor blacks or Latinos would do/use. We also have in America (and elsewhere?) the concept of "white trash" which I view as the poor white American analog of "ghetto". It also needs to go. (Bracing for downvotes)
  - JoeAltmaier 15y ago
    Ghetto is a portion of the city where minorities live (wikipedia). Nothing about poor, no particular race. So as a euphemism for substandard, I agree it doesn't seem appropriate. A WASP ghetto in New Hampshire might have high standards I suppose. Your guess about what people are suggesting may also be off the mark. Nothing in the definition regarding race or even Americanism. On the other hand, if you are right, then what is the problem? You want to reserve the word for other purposes? You have observed a higher standard for public works in ghettos, and believe the appelation is inaccurate?
    - jessedhillon 15y ago
      Your assumption is that when people use it, they are strictly applying the dictionary definition, and not referencing an unwritten but well-understood cultural context; I would disagree with this basis. Indeed, in order to accept that a dictionary definition is even relevant here, we would have to believe that words never change their meaning once defined, or that they only change their meaning when that new definition appears in the dictionary and not apart from that event. There is, in my opinion, a racial undercurrent to the word and that it is not (merely) a reference to the quality of roads or sidewalks in the ghetto, but to those who live there. That these qualities apply to the people who live there too. BTW, from Wikipedia's page on "Ghetto": "A ghetto is a section of a city occupied by a group who live there especially because of social, economic, or legal pressure." Emphasis mine. Economic pressure, e.g., they can't afford to live elsewhere.
  - nhangen 15y ago
    Only on HN can a discussion about business testing be whittled down into a talk on the essence of the word "ghetto." I disagree with you here, but I appreciate that this kind of discussion exists.
- GoodIntentions 15y ago
  may I suggest BAM testing? Bare Ass Minimum. - It works, but just.
jgmmo 15y ago
How about 'interest testing' instead. And, BTW people have been doing this for years. Write up some google ads for nonexistent products and then watch and wait to see what value props and features matter to your test market.
tritogeneia 15y ago
Test and iterate is obvious. What's not obvious here is just how early and where: test the idea before you have a project, test on a high-traffic site instead of picking a group of test users to play in a private setting.

75 points by DanielRibeiro 15y ago

This is such a powerful, simple concept. We've discussed this before on HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=539900 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=539900 And there's a whole forum dedicated to this style of product creation / testing on Tim Ferris' site: http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/vBulletin/forumdisplay.php?s=9ae24b28914ac9d68687698104da781e&f=5 http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/vBulletin/forumdisplay.php?s... Lots of goodies buried in there.

rokhayakebe 15y ago

I frankly doubt there is a way to know which product will make a viable business or not. If you think about it Google has more data then anyone on what users actually want, and they still create products which fail.

r00fus 15y ago
Perhaps if they based their new features on users testing like Zynga, instead of the 20% projects of their employees they might have features that have more market success (keep in mind Google's and Zynga's market are not directly comparable). Implementation wise, I could see Google doing a "labs ghetto" where some set of white-listed MVPs would go out to small percentage of their user-base. It's a powerful concept.

jaredmck 15y ago

Ghetto testing? That's a terrible name for this...

reitzensteinm 15y ago
I think it describes it perfectly, at least based on the usage of ghetto as slang where I grew up (Australia). Of course, it's not a term to use where political correctness is required.
jessedhillon 15y ago
I really wish "ghetto" -- as a stand-in for ill-conceived, poorly executed, low quality, substandard etc. -- would die. IMO when people use it, they are introducing the suggestion that these "ghetto" things are what poor blacks or Latinos would do/use. We also have in America (and elsewhere?) the concept of "white trash" which I view as the poor white American analog of "ghetto". It also needs to go. (Bracing for downvotes)
- JoeAltmaier 15y ago
  Ghetto is a portion of the city where minorities live (wikipedia). Nothing about poor, no particular race. So as a euphemism for substandard, I agree it doesn't seem appropriate. A WASP ghetto in New Hampshire might have high standards I suppose. Your guess about what people are suggesting may also be off the mark. Nothing in the definition regarding race or even Americanism. On the other hand, if you are right, then what is the problem? You want to reserve the word for other purposes? You have observed a higher standard for public works in ghettos, and believe the appelation is inaccurate?
  - jessedhillon 15y ago
    Your assumption is that when people use it, they are strictly applying the dictionary definition, and not referencing an unwritten but well-understood cultural context; I would disagree with this basis. Indeed, in order to accept that a dictionary definition is even relevant here, we would have to believe that words never change their meaning once defined, or that they only change their meaning when that new definition appears in the dictionary and not apart from that event. There is, in my opinion, a racial undercurrent to the word and that it is not (merely) a reference to the quality of roads or sidewalks in the ghetto, but to those who live there. That these qualities apply to the people who live there too. BTW, from Wikipedia's page on "Ghetto": "A ghetto is a section of a city occupied by a group who live there especially because of social, economic, or legal pressure." Emphasis mine. Economic pressure, e.g., they can't afford to live elsewhere.
- nhangen 15y ago
  Only on HN can a discussion about business testing be whittled down into a talk on the essence of the word "ghetto." I disagree with you here, but I appreciate that this kind of discussion exists.
GoodIntentions 15y ago
may I suggest BAM testing? Bare Ass Minimum. - It works, but just.

jgmmo 15y ago

How about 'interest testing' instead. And, BTW people have been doing this for years. Write up some google ads for nonexistent products and then watch and wait to see what value props and features matter to your test market.

tritogeneia 15y ago

Test and iterate is obvious. What's not obvious here is just how early and where: test the idea before you have a project, test on a high-traffic site instead of picking a group of test users to play in a private setting.