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Clinton was saying the 2016 election wasn't legitimate as recently as October 2020 AND she suggested Biden should never concede no matter what (which suggested

Clinton was saying the 2016 election wasn't legitimate as recently as October 2020 AND she suggested Biden should never concede no matter what (which suggested that 2020 would be illegitimate). And saying well election fraud and voter registration cheating isn't the same thing as voter fraud is a distinction without a difference. The GOP took it further than the Clinton did in 2016. But the democrats pushed russia conspiracy theories for 3 years in order to de-legitimize Trump. Their hands are not clean.

acdha 6y ago
Try to find a primary source citation for that claim and you’ll learn both why the situations aren’t comparable and the people who told you they were are hoping you don’t check sources. She’s talked about real things - voter suppression, propaganda campaigns, some funded by foreign governments – but she’s never made the kind of lies we saw about fake votes or said that millions of legitimate votes should be thrown out because she didn’t like the results. Now, you are trying to conflate talk of voter suppression with fraud but that’s not correct for two reasons: the first is simply that widespread fraud is imaginary in the modern era, but the second is the difference between following a legal process and subverting it. Trying to conflate the two so it’s easier to pretend your party didn’t do something unusual is just dishonest.
- rhino369 6y ago
  The argument that an election is illegitimate because a tiny fraction of facebook ads were funded by Russia instead of wealthy US donors is just as absurd as claims that these elections were illiterate because voter ID rules were suspended for Corona. Democrats think its voter suppression to ban letting party functionaries go register and collect ballots with out any ID or signature matching. Republicans think its fraud to let party functionaries go register and collect ballots with out any ID or signature matching. You've just decided the former is fact and the later is wrong. The insane conspiracy theories peddled by Trump associates like Guiliani, Woods, and Powell are far beyond what mainstream democrats said (but not really that different from what fringe democrats said about ROVIAN DIEBOLD MACHINES STEALING OHIO in 2004). While Kerry didn't push these theories, 31 house members and Barbera Boxer in the Senate voted to reject the Ohio votes based on the same sort of conspiracy theories. And again in 2016, while not lead by Clinton, there was a concerted effort to flip electoral votes--the so called hamilton electors. At least one actually did change their vote. I'll agree the GOP took it to a new level. But some democrats had previously taken it to new levels in prior elections.
- rayiner 6y ago
  > She’s talked about real things - voter suppression, propaganda campaigns, some funded by foreign governments – but she’s never made the kind of lies we saw about fake votes or said that millions of legitimate votes should be thrown out because she didn’t like the results. The lies are different in the specifics but they’re lies calling into question the legitimacy of the results. Fact checkers have given Clinton multiple “pants on fire” ratings for these claims: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/sep/19/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-wrong-again-wisconsin-voter-id/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/sep/19/hillary-cl... https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/mar/06/hillary-clinton/clinton-hot-seat-claim-thousands-were-turned-away-/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/mar/06/hillary-cl... Based on the studies we have seen, complaining about Voter ID laws, like Clinton did about Wisconsin, is akin to complaining about mail in voting security: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/2/21/18230009/voter-id-laws-fraud-turnout-study-research https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/2/21/18230009/v... > The results: Voter ID laws do not seem to decrease turnout, even when the data is broken down by race. This held when the data was analyzed in different ways, like evaluating only the effect of stricter laws that require an ID with a photo. Voter ID laws are also broadly popular, among whites and non-whites: https://news.gallup.com/poll/194741/four-five-americans-support-voter-laws-early-voting.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/194741/four-five-americans-supp... (81% of whites and 77% of non-whites support both early voting and voter ID. Funnily enough, “voter suppressed” states like Georgia and Texas have both. Georgia also had automatic voter registration, which non-whites strongly support, thanks to Brian Kemp.)

acdha 6y ago

Try to find a primary source citation for that claim and you’ll learn both why the situations aren’t comparable and the people who told you they were are hoping you don’t check sources. She’s talked about real things - voter suppression, propaganda campaigns, some funded by foreign governments – but she’s never made the kind of lies we saw about fake votes or said that millions of legitimate votes should be thrown out because she didn’t like the results. Now, you are trying to conflate talk of voter suppression with fraud but that’s not correct for two reasons: the first is simply that widespread fraud is imaginary in the modern era, but the second is the difference between following a legal process and subverting it. Trying to conflate the two so it’s easier to pretend your party didn’t do something unusual is just dishonest.

rhino369 6y ago
The argument that an election is illegitimate because a tiny fraction of facebook ads were funded by Russia instead of wealthy US donors is just as absurd as claims that these elections were illiterate because voter ID rules were suspended for Corona. Democrats think its voter suppression to ban letting party functionaries go register and collect ballots with out any ID or signature matching. Republicans think its fraud to let party functionaries go register and collect ballots with out any ID or signature matching. You've just decided the former is fact and the later is wrong. The insane conspiracy theories peddled by Trump associates like Guiliani, Woods, and Powell are far beyond what mainstream democrats said (but not really that different from what fringe democrats said about ROVIAN DIEBOLD MACHINES STEALING OHIO in 2004). While Kerry didn't push these theories, 31 house members and Barbera Boxer in the Senate voted to reject the Ohio votes based on the same sort of conspiracy theories. And again in 2016, while not lead by Clinton, there was a concerted effort to flip electoral votes--the so called hamilton electors. At least one actually did change their vote. I'll agree the GOP took it to a new level. But some democrats had previously taken it to new levels in prior elections.
rayiner 6y ago
> She’s talked about real things - voter suppression, propaganda campaigns, some funded by foreign governments – but she’s never made the kind of lies we saw about fake votes or said that millions of legitimate votes should be thrown out because she didn’t like the results. The lies are different in the specifics but they’re lies calling into question the legitimacy of the results. Fact checkers have given Clinton multiple “pants on fire” ratings for these claims: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/sep/19/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-wrong-again-wisconsin-voter-id/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/sep/19/hillary-cl... https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/mar/06/hillary-clinton/clinton-hot-seat-claim-thousands-were-turned-away-/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/mar/06/hillary-cl... Based on the studies we have seen, complaining about Voter ID laws, like Clinton did about Wisconsin, is akin to complaining about mail in voting security: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/2/21/18230009/voter-id-laws-fraud-turnout-study-research https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/2/21/18230009/v... > The results: Voter ID laws do not seem to decrease turnout, even when the data is broken down by race. This held when the data was analyzed in different ways, like evaluating only the effect of stricter laws that require an ID with a photo. Voter ID laws are also broadly popular, among whites and non-whites: https://news.gallup.com/poll/194741/four-five-americans-support-voter-laws-early-voting.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/194741/four-five-americans-supp... (81% of whites and 77% of non-whites support both early voting and voter ID. Funnily enough, “voter suppressed” states like Georgia and Texas have both. Georgia also had automatic voter registration, which non-whites strongly support, thanks to Brian Kemp.)