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Democratic objections in the past were symbolic, not substantive. They were about narrow but specific election flaws. No expectation of reversing anything. N

Democratic objections in the past were symbolic, not substantive. They were about narrow but specific election flaws. No expectation of reversing anything. No threats. No breakdown of Law and Order. No takeover of the capitol. No insurrection. And absolutely, positively no malicious incitement by lame duck president of the United States.

rayiner 6y ago
With a Democrat controlled House, it was impossible for the objections to reverse anything. Everyone knew the objection was symbolic.
- px43 6y ago
  Trump is still claiming he had way more votes and that the election was stolen from him. In the past, the losing candidates had already conceded and congratulated the winner months before. There is a huge difference between making a symbolic vote, and voting as part of a planned coup, even if the coup failed.
  - jazzyk 6y ago
    Hillary had been claiming Trump's presidency was 'illegitimate' all 4 years. Just one link (there are hundreds of others), for example: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trump-is-an-illegitimate-president/2019/09/26/29195d5a-e099-11e9-b199-f638bf2c340f_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trum...
    - px43 6y ago
      No amount of out-of-context interviews are going to change the fact that she called him up and conceded on election night. https://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/09/clinton-calls-trump-to-concede-election-nbc-reports.html https://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/09/clinton-calls-trump-to-conce... She might complain to anyone willing to listen that he didn't win fairly, but she never made the claim that he didn't win, and has stated on several occasions that he did win.
- newacct583 6y ago
  > Everyone knew the objection was symbolic. Voters did not. Even today, most republicans think the election was fraudulent. The people who should have been telling them the truth lied to them. And that's what this effort is about, not the very narrow sense of the objections. The objections were part of a coordinated effort across the whole party to lie to the american people in an attempt to subvert an election.
  - undefined1 6y ago
    To be fair, voters thought the 2016 election was fraudulent too. Russia, Cambridge Analytica, #NotMyPresident. This was already the new normal. We'll see it again in 2024 regardless of which side wins or loses.
    - newacct583 6y ago
      And any elected politicians or major thought leaders in 2016 who told those voters the election was stolen or fed their paranoia about the candidate's lies should absolutely have been censured in exactly this way. There really weren't any. And that's why this is important. Our leaders need to behave like grownups.
      - cmurf 6y ago
        Yes, but behaving like grownups no longer activates enough Republican voters to win presidential elections with a clear majority. 1996 to 2020, only in 2004 did the Republican candidate get a majority of the votes. Over that time period, Republican primary voters have evicted moderate Republicans in the House, and have started to successfully evict them from the Senate. The state GOP twitter accounts for Arizona, Oregon, and Hawaii have continued to peddle conspiracy theories, post-January 6. Arizona GOP have censured three Republicans for insufficient fealty to Trump: the widow of Sen. John McCain, former Sen. Jeff Flake, and the current governor. Senators Toomey, Portman, and Burr, all Republicans, are not running for re-election. It's not due to partisanship between Republicans and Democrats, but within the Republican party. They are all moderate Trump supporters, but that's not good enough now. Senators report a significant pressure campaign, very angry Republican constituents insisting upon a Trump acquittal no matter what, even including death threats. The pressure campaign is probably working, as evidenced by jurors claiming Trump himself attacked Republicans, who wouldn't help him overturn the election, far worse than Democrats who were never part of the fold in the first place. The impeachment trial and conviction vote will demonstrate the degree to which the Republican party is really the Trump party, perhaps most especially the party of Trumpian primary voters.
cwhiz 6y ago
Do you actually believe that the members of the House had an expectation of reversing the election? There were only 170 or so of them. And it’s not as if these individual members of Congress were involved in the riot, breakdown of law and order, “insurrection”, or takeover of the capitol.
- newacct583 6y ago
  > Do you actually believe that the members of the House had an expectation of reversing the election No, they knew (or at least the mature ones knew) it was doomed. But their voters did not. They went in there lying to their base that this was going to fix what they presented as a "fraudulent" election. And that's not OK.

rayiner 6y ago

With a Democrat controlled House, it was impossible for the objections to reverse anything. Everyone knew the objection was symbolic.

px43 6y ago
Trump is still claiming he had way more votes and that the election was stolen from him. In the past, the losing candidates had already conceded and congratulated the winner months before. There is a huge difference between making a symbolic vote, and voting as part of a planned coup, even if the coup failed.
- jazzyk 6y ago
  Hillary had been claiming Trump's presidency was 'illegitimate' all 4 years. Just one link (there are hundreds of others), for example: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trump-is-an-illegitimate-president/2019/09/26/29195d5a-e099-11e9-b199-f638bf2c340f_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trum...
  - px43 6y ago
    No amount of out-of-context interviews are going to change the fact that she called him up and conceded on election night. https://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/09/clinton-calls-trump-to-concede-election-nbc-reports.html https://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/09/clinton-calls-trump-to-conce... She might complain to anyone willing to listen that he didn't win fairly, but she never made the claim that he didn't win, and has stated on several occasions that he did win.
newacct583 6y ago
> Everyone knew the objection was symbolic. Voters did not. Even today, most republicans think the election was fraudulent. The people who should have been telling them the truth lied to them. And that's what this effort is about, not the very narrow sense of the objections. The objections were part of a coordinated effort across the whole party to lie to the american people in an attempt to subvert an election.
- undefined1 6y ago
  To be fair, voters thought the 2016 election was fraudulent too. Russia, Cambridge Analytica, #NotMyPresident. This was already the new normal. We'll see it again in 2024 regardless of which side wins or loses.
  - newacct583 6y ago
    And any elected politicians or major thought leaders in 2016 who told those voters the election was stolen or fed their paranoia about the candidate's lies should absolutely have been censured in exactly this way. There really weren't any. And that's why this is important. Our leaders need to behave like grownups.
    - cmurf 6y ago
      Yes, but behaving like grownups no longer activates enough Republican voters to win presidential elections with a clear majority. 1996 to 2020, only in 2004 did the Republican candidate get a majority of the votes. Over that time period, Republican primary voters have evicted moderate Republicans in the House, and have started to successfully evict them from the Senate. The state GOP twitter accounts for Arizona, Oregon, and Hawaii have continued to peddle conspiracy theories, post-January 6. Arizona GOP have censured three Republicans for insufficient fealty to Trump: the widow of Sen. John McCain, former Sen. Jeff Flake, and the current governor. Senators Toomey, Portman, and Burr, all Republicans, are not running for re-election. It's not due to partisanship between Republicans and Democrats, but within the Republican party. They are all moderate Trump supporters, but that's not good enough now. Senators report a significant pressure campaign, very angry Republican constituents insisting upon a Trump acquittal no matter what, even including death threats. The pressure campaign is probably working, as evidenced by jurors claiming Trump himself attacked Republicans, who wouldn't help him overturn the election, far worse than Democrats who were never part of the fold in the first place. The impeachment trial and conviction vote will demonstrate the degree to which the Republican party is really the Trump party, perhaps most especially the party of Trumpian primary voters.

cwhiz 6y ago

Do you actually believe that the members of the House had an expectation of reversing the election? There were only 170 or so of them. And it’s not as if these individual members of Congress were involved in the riot, breakdown of law and order, “insurrection”, or takeover of the capitol.

newacct583 6y ago
> Do you actually believe that the members of the House had an expectation of reversing the election No, they knew (or at least the mature ones knew) it was doomed. But their voters did not. They went in there lying to their base that this was going to fix what they presented as a "fraudulent" election. And that's not OK.