5 ms·

Personally, I'm very happy the new RedHat showed their true colors so fast: it helped me decide to leave their ecosystem. EDIT: added "the new" to qualify the

by 1996 6y ago

Personally, I'm very happy the new RedHat showed their true colors so fast: it helped me decide to leave their ecosystem. EDIT: added "the new" to qualify the statement about RedHat, as indeed it's IBM at play. No amount of "kernel support" is worth the trouble of dealing with them.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
turminal 6y ago
Choices are though if you want to leave the RedHat ecosystem. Sure you can leave CentOS for Debian or Fedora for Ubuntu, but the entire Linux ecosystem is gradually becoming RedHat ecosystem.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Which kind of proves the point how hard it is to make any money out of FOSS when software is the product.
  - turminal 6y ago
    You mean, if there were other successful companies other than RedHat, the ecosystem would be more diverse?
    - dralley 6y ago
      SUSE is successful too, just small. Canonical has a wide audience but they've been unable to actually translate that into a self-sustaining business. They're lucky that Mark Shuttleworth is committed guy and not too attached to his stacks of money.
      - 1996 6y ago
        I see Ubuntu future in the hands of Microsoft!
      - turminal 6y ago
        I just asked GP to clarify what he meant. My original comment was exactly about the ways canonical, SUSE, Debian and others are dependent on RedHat. Canonical attempted to develop upstart as their in house systemd alternative but they failed. Exactly the same thing happened with their attempt at their own graphics stack. I don't know a lot about SUSE, but iirc their distro is also systemd based. Edit: Suse's package manager is also based on RPM.
        pmarin 6y ago
        upstart predates systemd by 4 years.
        turminal 6y ago
        I know. My comment was poorly worded and it reads as if it was the other way around but that doesn't invalidate the fact that they had their own tool and it failed.
- 1996 6y ago
  > the entire Linux ecosystem is gradually becoming RedHat ecosystem. No. Suse still exists, if you don't like Debian based distribution. But my money is on the Debians - and more specifically, on Ubuntu. For server stuff, Ubuntu is great - commercial support with various cloud providers, lots of prepackaged software (including the commercial software I use). For hiring, a lot of students run either Debian or Ubuntu on their own computers - meaning I don't have to teach them the intricacies of rpm like apt search is rpm -Q, apt install is rpm -i ... Icing on the cake is ZFS as the rootfs filesystem out of the box since the last few Ubuntus. RedHat was innovative, like when they replaced ext4 by XFS as the default filesystem, but that was like 15 years ago. Still, big money make miracles happen. If IBM can arrange some relicensing of ZFS with Oracle, they could use it on RedHat, but it'd take me a lot of cajoling to even consider switching back - much more than a filesystem that's the minimal prerequisite to just put RedHat on the list of options. Bitten once, twice shy you know? Anyway, given how it's favored for WSL, Microsoft will eventually fork or buy Ubuntu from Canonical or just buy Canonical outright, which will make it even more of a rival to RedHat in the long term.
  - dralley 6y ago
    >meaning I don't have to teach them the intricacies of rpm like apt search is rpm -Q, apt install is rpm -i ... "rpm" is not an equivalent to "apt", it's an equivalent to "dpkg". The tool you would actually use is "dnf" or "yum", which isn't any more difficult to use than "apt" is. "dnf search" "dnf install" "dnf remove" "dnf list" etc. It's fine to prefer Debian / Ubuntu but please don't repeat information that's a decade out of date :)
    - 1996 6y ago
      > It's fine to prefer Debian / Ubuntu but please don't repeat information that's a decade out of date :) Fair enough!
- pnutjam 6y ago
  Let me introduce you to our lord and savior OpenSuse.
  - turminal 6y ago
    Which uses systemd (developed by RedHat) and has package management built on top of RPM (developed by RedHat)
    - dralley 6y ago
      To be totally fair to SUSE, they do have plenty of notable contributions into the "RPM ecosystem". Libsolv, which SUSE wrote for their Zypper package manager, is also used by DNF for example. They also do plenty of kernel development -- not as much as RH due to sheer size, but still significant. Whereas Canonical doesn't really do any.
    - pnutjam 6y ago
      Btrfs, wicked, yast, Uyani... Plenty if differences.
      - turminal 6y ago
        I'm not arguing OpenSUSE/SUSE isn't a standalone distribution, it's just that they have very important parts of the system dependent on RedHat.
- digitalsushi 6y ago
  Asking a fortune 100 to drop RHEL for Ubuntu is a tough order. If a company has a very, very tight hold on their deployments, it could be done. If a company allows for an open form of their deployments, it becomes unlikely if the goal is stability and not progress. And I say this as an Ubuntu lover. It's a complaint against lockin and not the destination platform.

by 1996 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

turminal 6y ago

Choices are though if you want to leave the RedHat ecosystem. Sure you can leave CentOS for Debian or Fedora for Ubuntu, but the entire Linux ecosystem is gradually becoming RedHat ecosystem.

pjmlp 6y ago
Which kind of proves the point how hard it is to make any money out of FOSS when software is the product.
- turminal 6y ago
  You mean, if there were other successful companies other than RedHat, the ecosystem would be more diverse?
  - dralley 6y ago
    SUSE is successful too, just small. Canonical has a wide audience but they've been unable to actually translate that into a self-sustaining business. They're lucky that Mark Shuttleworth is committed guy and not too attached to his stacks of money.
    - 1996 6y ago
      I see Ubuntu future in the hands of Microsoft!
    - turminal 6y ago
      I just asked GP to clarify what he meant. My original comment was exactly about the ways canonical, SUSE, Debian and others are dependent on RedHat. Canonical attempted to develop upstart as their in house systemd alternative but they failed. Exactly the same thing happened with their attempt at their own graphics stack. I don't know a lot about SUSE, but iirc their distro is also systemd based. Edit: Suse's package manager is also based on RPM.
      - pmarin 6y ago
        upstart predates systemd by 4 years.
        turminal 6y ago
        I know. My comment was poorly worded and it reads as if it was the other way around but that doesn't invalidate the fact that they had their own tool and it failed.
1996 6y ago
> the entire Linux ecosystem is gradually becoming RedHat ecosystem. No. Suse still exists, if you don't like Debian based distribution. But my money is on the Debians - and more specifically, on Ubuntu. For server stuff, Ubuntu is great - commercial support with various cloud providers, lots of prepackaged software (including the commercial software I use). For hiring, a lot of students run either Debian or Ubuntu on their own computers - meaning I don't have to teach them the intricacies of rpm like apt search is rpm -Q, apt install is rpm -i ... Icing on the cake is ZFS as the rootfs filesystem out of the box since the last few Ubuntus. RedHat was innovative, like when they replaced ext4 by XFS as the default filesystem, but that was like 15 years ago. Still, big money make miracles happen. If IBM can arrange some relicensing of ZFS with Oracle, they could use it on RedHat, but it'd take me a lot of cajoling to even consider switching back - much more than a filesystem that's the minimal prerequisite to just put RedHat on the list of options. Bitten once, twice shy you know? Anyway, given how it's favored for WSL, Microsoft will eventually fork or buy Ubuntu from Canonical or just buy Canonical outright, which will make it even more of a rival to RedHat in the long term.
- dralley 6y ago
  >meaning I don't have to teach them the intricacies of rpm like apt search is rpm -Q, apt install is rpm -i ... "rpm" is not an equivalent to "apt", it's an equivalent to "dpkg". The tool you would actually use is "dnf" or "yum", which isn't any more difficult to use than "apt" is. "dnf search" "dnf install" "dnf remove" "dnf list" etc. It's fine to prefer Debian / Ubuntu but please don't repeat information that's a decade out of date :)
  - 1996 6y ago
    > It's fine to prefer Debian / Ubuntu but please don't repeat information that's a decade out of date :) Fair enough!
pnutjam 6y ago
Let me introduce you to our lord and savior OpenSuse.
- turminal 6y ago
  Which uses systemd (developed by RedHat) and has package management built on top of RPM (developed by RedHat)
  - dralley 6y ago
    To be totally fair to SUSE, they do have plenty of notable contributions into the "RPM ecosystem". Libsolv, which SUSE wrote for their Zypper package manager, is also used by DNF for example. They also do plenty of kernel development -- not as much as RH due to sheer size, but still significant. Whereas Canonical doesn't really do any.
  - pnutjam 6y ago
    Btrfs, wicked, yast, Uyani... Plenty if differences.
    - turminal 6y ago
      I'm not arguing OpenSUSE/SUSE isn't a standalone distribution, it's just that they have very important parts of the system dependent on RedHat.
digitalsushi 6y ago
Asking a fortune 100 to drop RHEL for Ubuntu is a tough order. If a company has a very, very tight hold on their deployments, it could be done. If a company allows for an open form of their deployments, it becomes unlikely if the goal is stability and not progress. And I say this as an Ubuntu lover. It's a complaint against lockin and not the destination platform.