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People just can't get their heads wrapped around the efficiency of industrialization. Repairing stuff is an expert dedicating 30 minutes or more (often more) t

People just can't get their heads wrapped around the efficiency of industrialization. Repairing stuff is an expert dedicating 30 minutes or more (often more) to your gadget. (sometimes that expert might be you yourself - it still remains true). In the same time, factory drones can produce hundreds of the same gadget. Naturally, the time of the expert is much more expensive than simply buying a new gadget. This "right to repair" is romanticized nonsense, like the idea of everybody growing their own food. Not that I don't like the idea of being able to repair my own things. I even think one should try occasionally, just so that one doesn't become totally stupid. But to claim it is somehow a common good and betterment of society is nonsense. The opposite is true. Devices will now become more expensive for everybody, because companies have to jump through hoops to make them repairable, even though hardly anybody will actually repair them. If you want to tinker, or grow your own food, get a Raspberry Pi or a little tomato plant for your balcony Also, if you are worried about the environment, perhaps recycling laws make more sense, or more specifically, producers being responsible for the proper disposal of their devices. Would have to consider the upsides and downsides, though.

csours 6y ago
I mostly agree, but I do think more could be done for maintainability and repair-ability. I used to work in an automobile assembly plant, and even in the plant it is much better to build the vehicle correctly the first time than it is to repair it. On the assembly line, every thing takes one minute or less (ish, depending on line rate). The alternator is bolted to the engine in a minute [0]. The transmission is bolted to the engine in a minute. The doors go on the car in a minute. etc etc. Very few things take longer than a minute. Meanwhile, if you have to change an engine, the first time you know you will have to change it is at the end of the line, when the vehicle is completely assembled, and it takes several hours to remove and replace the engine. In fact, often times the engine is removed at the end of the line, then the vehicle is sent back down the line to meet up with a freshly assembled engine! So yes, first time production is much, much more time efficient than repair - BUT - Repair and maintenance is a design goal just like any other design goal. Manufacturers care about it some because of warranty costs and resale value and reputation. Consumers asking for more attention to be paid to those design goals is completely reasonable to me. Unfortunately there is no strong signal of repairability at the time of purchase; whereas there is a strong signal of cost, feature set, and initial quality; thus manufacturers concentrate on those design features (among others, like safety and other legal requirements) 0. The alternator person will also have some other tasks like starting some bolts for the next person down the line. The point is that no single step takes longer than a minute. The very few steps that do take longer than a minute are remarkable and you will see things like the line splitting into two, or the 4 of the same process cell working round robin on cars as they go down the line.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  > Unfortunately there is no strong signal of repairability at the time of purchase; This signal need not exist, because the superseding signal of “is this device worth fixing” precludes it. For some things, the cost to fix is not low enough compared to the cost to buy new. For a car, the cost to fix is low enough compared to the cost to buy new. For a a household electronic device, the cost to fix is not low enough.
schrijver 6y ago
I understand the efficiency of industrialization. The problem is that the manufacturing of electronic devices has a lot of impact on our planet because of the required resources both in terms of energy and precious metals, and because of the growing pile of e-waste, and none of this is priced into our cheap gadgets. Repairable devices means devices that live longer, which means less environmental impact, there’s nothing romantic about that. From an environmental perspective, repair is also preferable to recycling, because reuse tends to be much less resource intensive than recycling.
- herewegoagain2 6y ago
  It doesn't mean devices live longer. Only a fraction of them break, and especially with electronics never versions are strictly better than older versions. Most people buy newer iPhone because their old ones have become too slow, not because they are broken. And I think you are wrong about the economics of repairing vs recycling. In both cases, it also depends on the market demand. If people want to repair their stuff so much, why don't any companies come forward with repairable products? Some do (Fairphone, I guess), but it doesn't seem to be a huge success. In any case, anybody who really wanted to could see to buying only repairable things. What is the point in offering people who don't want to to do the same? I think people just want the same iPhone they have now, with additional "repairale" property. That is not going to happen. The repairable iPhone will be thicker and less elegant than the non-repairable iPhone (compare iPhone to Fiarphone). And suddenly people are not buying it anymore.
  - delroth 6y ago
    > I think people just want the same iPhone they have now, with additional "repairale" property. That is not going to happen. The repairable iPhone will be thicker and less elegant than the non-repairable iPhone (compare iPhone to Fiarphone). And suddenly people are not buying it anymore. You're going from one extreme to the other. You could for example require Apple to provide access to their spare parts supply chain (replacement batteries, screens, maybe some key ICs that regularly fail, etc.) to independent repair shops. This would greatly increase the repairability and decrease electronics waste. Right now, many repairs aren't possible simply because you can't find parts, or because customs will block your parts from entering the US, or even because Apple has decided that only they can have the tools to pair a new home button with your current device.
dvdkon 6y ago
If industrialization is so great it obsoletes repair, why is it cheaper for me to buy a new laptop battery and replace it or even take it to a repair shop, who will replace it for a small fee? Why did my parents have a repairman over multiple times to fix their washing machine instead of buying a new one? And just a few years back, replacing a phone battery was a routine task, not an hour-long specialist job, and phones haven't gotten cheaper. It seems to me that the things you consider facts don't actually line up with real-world evidence.
- herewegoagain2 6y ago
  Your notebook with replaceable battery is fatter and heavier than the notebook without the replacable battery, and uses more resources, too (additional shell for the battery, cables, connectors...). Also more expensive to built, as it is more complicated (again, connectors, casing... that need to be assembled). Same for your phone. I have nothing against people buying such things, if that property is important to them. Just don't force it on everybody.
  - dvdkon 6y ago
    Actually I was talking about an internal battery that's just sold by the manufacturer, hence the reference to a repair shop. Of course, I don't want to dictate to manufacturers that they have to make everything swappable without tools, but just having access schematics, existing repair guides and spare parts would go a long way.
bo1024 6y ago
Consider John Deere tractors or other automobiles, to start. Also $500+ phones and computers. Also, right to repair generally includes right to modify and customize, e.g. flash your own firmware or so on.
trymas 6y ago
I think I understand where you are coming from, I have never changed a laptop's battery even when it was common for them to be replaceable. I have never upgraded a computer component. I have never flashed custom OS to my old smartphone. Mostly because by the time the need arises, the device is too old/slow, etc. Though the problem is that the issues of unrepairability are moving into high cost professional equipment. Consumers maybe are not willing to repair themselves or pay for repair, because indeed the consumer level devices are relatively cheap and labour is expensive, though it may not be the case on professional equipment or devices. Your 1000$ professional printer's head dried with ink? Buy whole new printer. Error from your's 500 000$ tractor's ECU - only a dealer can fix this, which may take months, but you have a one week window for harvesting. A <cheap device> broke on your car. It costs 50$ in your nearest salvage yard, but you __must__ flash a firmware to match your exact car at dealer for 500$, because only dealers can do it. This whole "efficiency of industralization" will start to fall apart when industries will start blocking other industries. Farming is super efficient these days - couple of guys with couple of tractors or other farming equipment, will harvest enough food in a week that will eventually feed hundreds of thousands of people. If their super efficient tractor equipment will fail during tight windows of harvest and their equipment provider will say "fuck you" - that whole harvest can be spoiled.

csours 6y ago

I mostly agree, but I do think more could be done for maintainability and repair-ability. I used to work in an automobile assembly plant, and even in the plant it is much better to build the vehicle correctly the first time than it is to repair it. On the assembly line, every thing takes one minute or less (ish, depending on line rate). The alternator is bolted to the engine in a minute [0]. The transmission is bolted to the engine in a minute. The doors go on the car in a minute. etc etc. Very few things take longer than a minute. Meanwhile, if you have to change an engine, the first time you know you will have to change it is at the end of the line, when the vehicle is completely assembled, and it takes several hours to remove and replace the engine. In fact, often times the engine is removed at the end of the line, then the vehicle is sent back down the line to meet up with a freshly assembled engine! So yes, first time production is much, much more time efficient than repair - BUT - Repair and maintenance is a design goal just like any other design goal. Manufacturers care about it some because of warranty costs and resale value and reputation. Consumers asking for more attention to be paid to those design goals is completely reasonable to me. Unfortunately there is no strong signal of repairability at the time of purchase; whereas there is a strong signal of cost, feature set, and initial quality; thus manufacturers concentrate on those design features (among others, like safety and other legal requirements) 0. The alternator person will also have some other tasks like starting some bolts for the next person down the line. The point is that no single step takes longer than a minute. The very few steps that do take longer than a minute are remarkable and you will see things like the line splitting into two, or the 4 of the same process cell working round robin on cars as they go down the line.

lotsofpulp 6y ago
> Unfortunately there is no strong signal of repairability at the time of purchase; This signal need not exist, because the superseding signal of “is this device worth fixing” precludes it. For some things, the cost to fix is not low enough compared to the cost to buy new. For a car, the cost to fix is low enough compared to the cost to buy new. For a a household electronic device, the cost to fix is not low enough.

schrijver 6y ago

I understand the efficiency of industrialization. The problem is that the manufacturing of electronic devices has a lot of impact on our planet because of the required resources both in terms of energy and precious metals, and because of the growing pile of e-waste, and none of this is priced into our cheap gadgets. Repairable devices means devices that live longer, which means less environmental impact, there’s nothing romantic about that. From an environmental perspective, repair is also preferable to recycling, because reuse tends to be much less resource intensive than recycling.

herewegoagain2 6y ago
It doesn't mean devices live longer. Only a fraction of them break, and especially with electronics never versions are strictly better than older versions. Most people buy newer iPhone because their old ones have become too slow, not because they are broken. And I think you are wrong about the economics of repairing vs recycling. In both cases, it also depends on the market demand. If people want to repair their stuff so much, why don't any companies come forward with repairable products? Some do (Fairphone, I guess), but it doesn't seem to be a huge success. In any case, anybody who really wanted to could see to buying only repairable things. What is the point in offering people who don't want to to do the same? I think people just want the same iPhone they have now, with additional "repairale" property. That is not going to happen. The repairable iPhone will be thicker and less elegant than the non-repairable iPhone (compare iPhone to Fiarphone). And suddenly people are not buying it anymore.
- delroth 6y ago
  > I think people just want the same iPhone they have now, with additional "repairale" property. That is not going to happen. The repairable iPhone will be thicker and less elegant than the non-repairable iPhone (compare iPhone to Fiarphone). And suddenly people are not buying it anymore. You're going from one extreme to the other. You could for example require Apple to provide access to their spare parts supply chain (replacement batteries, screens, maybe some key ICs that regularly fail, etc.) to independent repair shops. This would greatly increase the repairability and decrease electronics waste. Right now, many repairs aren't possible simply because you can't find parts, or because customs will block your parts from entering the US, or even because Apple has decided that only they can have the tools to pair a new home button with your current device.

dvdkon 6y ago

If industrialization is so great it obsoletes repair, why is it cheaper for me to buy a new laptop battery and replace it or even take it to a repair shop, who will replace it for a small fee? Why did my parents have a repairman over multiple times to fix their washing machine instead of buying a new one? And just a few years back, replacing a phone battery was a routine task, not an hour-long specialist job, and phones haven't gotten cheaper. It seems to me that the things you consider facts don't actually line up with real-world evidence.

herewegoagain2 6y ago
Your notebook with replaceable battery is fatter and heavier than the notebook without the replacable battery, and uses more resources, too (additional shell for the battery, cables, connectors...). Also more expensive to built, as it is more complicated (again, connectors, casing... that need to be assembled). Same for your phone. I have nothing against people buying such things, if that property is important to them. Just don't force it on everybody.
- dvdkon 6y ago
  Actually I was talking about an internal battery that's just sold by the manufacturer, hence the reference to a repair shop. Of course, I don't want to dictate to manufacturers that they have to make everything swappable without tools, but just having access schematics, existing repair guides and spare parts would go a long way.

bo1024 6y ago

Consider John Deere tractors or other automobiles, to start. Also $500+ phones and computers. Also, right to repair generally includes right to modify and customize, e.g. flash your own firmware or so on.

trymas 6y ago

I think I understand where you are coming from, I have never changed a laptop's battery even when it was common for them to be replaceable. I have never upgraded a computer component. I have never flashed custom OS to my old smartphone. Mostly because by the time the need arises, the device is too old/slow, etc. Though the problem is that the issues of unrepairability are moving into high cost professional equipment. Consumers maybe are not willing to repair themselves or pay for repair, because indeed the consumer level devices are relatively cheap and labour is expensive, though it may not be the case on professional equipment or devices. Your 1000$ professional printer's head dried with ink? Buy whole new printer. Error from your's 500 000$ tractor's ECU - only a dealer can fix this, which may take months, but you have a one week window for harvesting. A <cheap device> broke on your car. It costs 50$ in your nearest salvage yard, but you __must__ flash a firmware to match your exact car at dealer for 500$, because only dealers can do it. This whole "efficiency of industralization" will start to fall apart when industries will start blocking other industries. Farming is super efficient these days - couple of guys with couple of tractors or other farming equipment, will harvest enough food in a week that will eventually feed hundreds of thousands of people. If their super efficient tractor equipment will fail during tight windows of harvest and their equipment provider will say "fuck you" - that whole harvest can be spoiled.