4 ms·

So just out of curiosity for those in defense of unmoderated e2e encrypted coms: When terrorists and cp distributers are using your platform which of your idea

So just out of curiosity for those in defense of unmoderated e2e encrypted coms: When terrorists and cp distributers are using your platform which of your ideals will take precedence?

babesh 6y ago
You mean we should ban encryption on the physical hardware of the Internet? Once there is a mechanism to verify the identity of the other party, those two parties don’t need the platform to do end to end encryption. Each party generates a public/private key pair, does some double encryption magic, and it’s all over. The platform doing this is a convenience. The platform storing this is just giving the government a convenient place to decrypt it once they have coerced the keys from one or more of the parties. I wonder how that would fly with the citizens of other countries that use Signal? Would they be comfortable with the US government reading their messages? Why is the left now so into policies that they decry when done in other countries: social scoring, travel bans, censorship? What is going on? Is the US going through it’s version of China’s Cultural Revolution?
- approxim8ion 6y ago
  Has GP indicated that they are on "the left"? There is a growing idea especially among Americans that all "left" people are authoritarians. It's even funnier because the idea of "terrorists and cp distributors" using encryption to bypass regulation was floated in your Congress was almost verbatim the reasoning behind the EARN IT act, introduced in Senate by Lindsey Graham, whom I hope you don't think is on the left. It went on to receive bipartisan support as well.
  - babesh 6y ago
    Quotes from the article leave that impression. “The app saw a surge in usage during last year’s protests for racial justice, even adding a tool to automatically blur faces in photos to help activists more safely share images of the demonstrations. This kind of growth, one that supported progressive causes, was exciting to Signal’s roughly 30-member team.” “But as the US presidential election grew closer, some Signal employees began raising concerns that group links could be abused. On September 29th, during a debate, President Trump had told the far-right extremist group the Proud Boys to “stand back and stand by.” During an all-hands meeting, an employee asked Marlinspike how the company would respond if a member of the Proud Boys or another extremist organization posted a Signal group chat link publicly in an effort to recruit members and coordinate violence.“ ““The world needs products like Signal — but they also need Signal to be thoughtful,” said Gregg Bernstein, a former user researcher who left the organization this month over his concerns.” ———— You do know that there was also coordinated violence in the BLM protests.
    - approxim8ion 6y ago
      I'm specifically talking about the person you replied to, not the article, which is more of an opinion piece with facts interspersed.
      - babesh 6y ago
        I didn’t say that specific person was left. But yes I should have been more clear. And yes, I know about that bill and that it was supported by Republicans. In fact, I linked to it in an earlier comment prior to your comment.
- diveanon 6y ago
  So just to be clear, as a platform you would be willing to facilitate those types of communications on the principle of "they could just do it themselves"?
  - babesh 6y ago
    Yes of course. It is the principle of privacy. Most of the time, governments have far more power than such groups. This power is ripe for abuse and power like this has been abused in the past in the US. Why would you think that it wouldn’t be abused again? Example, what the FBI did in the 60s including to MLK. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI–King_suicide_letter https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI–King_suicide_letter https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO Illegal surveillance against people deemed subversives. Taped MLK’s affairs. Sent it to his wife and him. Told him to commit suicide. Another example: More recent history as revealed by Edward Snowden shows that the government basically recorded all phone calls and grabbed all Google data on you, etc... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden Who is willing to invest this power in government? Apparently, for some ridiculous reason, you are more afraid of those Capitol Hill nut jobs than the CIA and FBI? You know the CIA that overthrows governments like that of Iran. You know the FBI that spies on sitting Presidents. Compare that to the nut jobs who organized publicly on Facebook and Twitter and decided to take selfie’s and posted to social media? Would you be for or against this if Trump won a second term?
approxim8ion 6y ago
What are moderated e2ee comms? How do you moderate content you are not expected to have any access to by design? And if the answer is to not have encryption, then when activists or groups that are being actively targeted and threatened need secure communications but find none, who is that on?
girvo 6y ago
If it’s E2E encrypted how do you propose finding out about it? And frankly it’s a near certainty they already do. I know drug dealers do at least.

So just out of curiosity for those in defense of unmoderated e2e encrypted coms: When terrorists and cp distributers are using your platform which of your ideals will take precedence?

babesh 6y ago

You mean we should ban encryption on the physical hardware of the Internet? Once there is a mechanism to verify the identity of the other party, those two parties don’t need the platform to do end to end encryption. Each party generates a public/private key pair, does some double encryption magic, and it’s all over. The platform doing this is a convenience. The platform storing this is just giving the government a convenient place to decrypt it once they have coerced the keys from one or more of the parties. I wonder how that would fly with the citizens of other countries that use Signal? Would they be comfortable with the US government reading their messages? Why is the left now so into policies that they decry when done in other countries: social scoring, travel bans, censorship? What is going on? Is the US going through it’s version of China’s Cultural Revolution?

approxim8ion 6y ago
Has GP indicated that they are on "the left"? There is a growing idea especially among Americans that all "left" people are authoritarians. It's even funnier because the idea of "terrorists and cp distributors" using encryption to bypass regulation was floated in your Congress was almost verbatim the reasoning behind the EARN IT act, introduced in Senate by Lindsey Graham, whom I hope you don't think is on the left. It went on to receive bipartisan support as well.
- babesh 6y ago
  Quotes from the article leave that impression. “The app saw a surge in usage during last year’s protests for racial justice, even adding a tool to automatically blur faces in photos to help activists more safely share images of the demonstrations. This kind of growth, one that supported progressive causes, was exciting to Signal’s roughly 30-member team.” “But as the US presidential election grew closer, some Signal employees began raising concerns that group links could be abused. On September 29th, during a debate, President Trump had told the far-right extremist group the Proud Boys to “stand back and stand by.” During an all-hands meeting, an employee asked Marlinspike how the company would respond if a member of the Proud Boys or another extremist organization posted a Signal group chat link publicly in an effort to recruit members and coordinate violence.“ ““The world needs products like Signal — but they also need Signal to be thoughtful,” said Gregg Bernstein, a former user researcher who left the organization this month over his concerns.” ———— You do know that there was also coordinated violence in the BLM protests.
  - approxim8ion 6y ago
    I'm specifically talking about the person you replied to, not the article, which is more of an opinion piece with facts interspersed.
    - babesh 6y ago
      I didn’t say that specific person was left. But yes I should have been more clear. And yes, I know about that bill and that it was supported by Republicans. In fact, I linked to it in an earlier comment prior to your comment.
diveanon 6y ago
So just to be clear, as a platform you would be willing to facilitate those types of communications on the principle of "they could just do it themselves"?
- babesh 6y ago
  Yes of course. It is the principle of privacy. Most of the time, governments have far more power than such groups. This power is ripe for abuse and power like this has been abused in the past in the US. Why would you think that it wouldn’t be abused again? Example, what the FBI did in the 60s including to MLK. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI–King_suicide_letter https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI–King_suicide_letter https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO Illegal surveillance against people deemed subversives. Taped MLK’s affairs. Sent it to his wife and him. Told him to commit suicide. Another example: More recent history as revealed by Edward Snowden shows that the government basically recorded all phone calls and grabbed all Google data on you, etc... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden Who is willing to invest this power in government? Apparently, for some ridiculous reason, you are more afraid of those Capitol Hill nut jobs than the CIA and FBI? You know the CIA that overthrows governments like that of Iran. You know the FBI that spies on sitting Presidents. Compare that to the nut jobs who organized publicly on Facebook and Twitter and decided to take selfie’s and posted to social media? Would you be for or against this if Trump won a second term?

approxim8ion 6y ago

What are moderated e2ee comms? How do you moderate content you are not expected to have any access to by design? And if the answer is to not have encryption, then when activists or groups that are being actively targeted and threatened need secure communications but find none, who is that on?

girvo 6y ago

If it’s E2E encrypted how do you propose finding out about it? And frankly it’s a near certainty they already do. I know drug dealers do at least.