4 ms·

Yes, it’s either that or just use paper ballots, hand counted. When I learned that the US actually uses software in its elections, I was shocked. It’s unthinka

by jpxw 6y ago

Yes, it’s either that or just use paper ballots, hand counted. When I learned that the US actually uses software in its elections, I was shocked. It’s unthinkable here in the UK.

ekianjo 6y ago
> It’s unthinkable here in the UK. Not just in the UK. Most Western democracies consider the idea completely crazy because nothing can be properly audited once papers are removed.
flerchin 6y ago
They have paper trails for every vote.
- ekianjo 6y ago
  Not in every jurisdiction, no.
- perl4ever 6y ago
  I believe you are both mistaken. From what I've read, there are some states/localities that have paper ballots they can check, including swing states like Georgia, where they did audit that exact thing. But then there are other states that do not keep the paper trail, most of which went "red" according to an article I read but did not verify.
  - matthewbauer 6y ago
    A few states are using direct recording systems, without a paper trail: https://ballotpedia.org/Voting_methods_and_equipment_by_state https://ballotpedia.org/Voting_methods_and_equipment_by_stat... "Currently only one state — Louisiana — keeps no paper trail of votes at all. Counties in eight states — Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Mississippi, New Jersey, Oklahoma, Tennessee and Texas — use a hybrid system" where some, but not all votes will have a paper trail. (from https://madison.com/on-paper-ballots-for-the-2020-election/article_76cdf4a5-6ede-5c09-bf20-46e0082c5262.html https://madison.com/on-paper-ballots-for-the-2020-election/a...)
  - luxuryballs 6y ago
    Correct, this is all in the dominion voting machine documentation. In some implementations if a ballot goes to adjudication based on some configured error threshold it means the machine operation gets a chance to look and decide what the ballot actually says, at which point it generates a new “corrected” ballot image and discards the “unreadable” one.
    - perl4ever 6y ago
      I'm not sure if you're under the impression that everywhere uses Dominion machines. I don't think that's the case. As I mentioned in another comment, it appears that in NY they're made by ES&S.
  - chrisco255 6y ago
    The problem with Georgia and Dominion Voting Systems in particular is that the ballots are digitally printed and can be printed on the fly. They are subject to manipulation by a single compromised person in a voting precinct through the system's "adjudication" process. In some precincts, DVS machines were failing at a rate of 70%, leading all ballots to be sent to the precinct overseer who literally just clicks and drags ballots into whatever candidate they think the person voted for. Doing this actually changes the record. Yes, the original ballot record gets destroyed and a new one gets created. It's that insecure. These machines also require USB transfers between ballot machines and a central machine. In some cases thousands of votes were found a a USB thumb drive weeks after the election. DVS is that convoluted and that bad.
matthewbauer 6y ago
Handcounting every single vote? That seems much more error prone than anything the U.S. uses. Ballot-marking devices used in many states[1] produce paper ballots that voter can validate and have some guarantee that it can be scanned in tabulation. I trust audited software to tabulate my vote much more than an overworked ballot counter. [1]: https://ballotpedia.org/Voting_methods_and_equipment_by_state https://ballotpedia.org/Voting_methods_and_equipment_by_stat...

by jpxw 6y ago

Yes, it’s either that or just use paper ballots, hand counted. When I learned that the US actually uses software in its elections, I was shocked. It’s unthinkable here in the UK.

ekianjo 6y ago

> It’s unthinkable here in the UK. Not just in the UK. Most Western democracies consider the idea completely crazy because nothing can be properly audited once papers are removed.

flerchin 6y ago

They have paper trails for every vote.

ekianjo 6y ago
Not in every jurisdiction, no.
perl4ever 6y ago
I believe you are both mistaken. From what I've read, there are some states/localities that have paper ballots they can check, including swing states like Georgia, where they did audit that exact thing. But then there are other states that do not keep the paper trail, most of which went "red" according to an article I read but did not verify.
- matthewbauer 6y ago
  A few states are using direct recording systems, without a paper trail: https://ballotpedia.org/Voting_methods_and_equipment_by_state https://ballotpedia.org/Voting_methods_and_equipment_by_stat... "Currently only one state — Louisiana — keeps no paper trail of votes at all. Counties in eight states — Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Mississippi, New Jersey, Oklahoma, Tennessee and Texas — use a hybrid system" where some, but not all votes will have a paper trail. (from https://madison.com/on-paper-ballots-for-the-2020-election/article_76cdf4a5-6ede-5c09-bf20-46e0082c5262.html https://madison.com/on-paper-ballots-for-the-2020-election/a...)
- luxuryballs 6y ago
  Correct, this is all in the dominion voting machine documentation. In some implementations if a ballot goes to adjudication based on some configured error threshold it means the machine operation gets a chance to look and decide what the ballot actually says, at which point it generates a new “corrected” ballot image and discards the “unreadable” one.
  - perl4ever 6y ago
    I'm not sure if you're under the impression that everywhere uses Dominion machines. I don't think that's the case. As I mentioned in another comment, it appears that in NY they're made by ES&S.
- chrisco255 6y ago
  The problem with Georgia and Dominion Voting Systems in particular is that the ballots are digitally printed and can be printed on the fly. They are subject to manipulation by a single compromised person in a voting precinct through the system's "adjudication" process. In some precincts, DVS machines were failing at a rate of 70%, leading all ballots to be sent to the precinct overseer who literally just clicks and drags ballots into whatever candidate they think the person voted for. Doing this actually changes the record. Yes, the original ballot record gets destroyed and a new one gets created. It's that insecure. These machines also require USB transfers between ballot machines and a central machine. In some cases thousands of votes were found a a USB thumb drive weeks after the election. DVS is that convoluted and that bad.

matthewbauer 6y ago

Handcounting every single vote? That seems much more error prone than anything the U.S. uses. Ballot-marking devices used in many states[1] produce paper ballots that voter can validate and have some guarantee that it can be scanned in tabulation. I trust audited software to tabulate my vote much more than an overworked ballot counter. [1]: https://ballotpedia.org/Voting_methods_and_equipment_by_state https://ballotpedia.org/Voting_methods_and_equipment_by_stat...